Learning Scales/Keys

BKN1964 · 2024-09-15T14:10:25+00:00

I'm interested in everyone's thoughts on the best way to go about learning scales, fingerings, keys (chords in a scale including extensions), etc. Do you fi...

Bellyman

rsl12, true. Dunno what the reasons are. (?)

Bellyman

PianoMonk, I have never been able to use the transpose feature well. I can if I have to but it is difficult for me.

At one time, I tuned pianos for a major part of my living. And even though I don't have "perfect pitch" like some claim, I can get pretty darned close. When I play a C, my ears expect to hear a C, not a B, not a C#, those are different notes. So I can get pretty confused about what I'm playing when the aural feedback is skewed.

BKN1964

Bellyman I saw Jordan Rudess talking about this. He has perfect pitch and had to do this for something. He said it almost drove him crazy.

iternabe

@Bellyman BKN1964 Interesting. What about singers? I have the impression they transpose naturally and frequently. Of course, there are no keys/buttons to hit in the vocal cord so it’s easier. But they also use solfège and relative pitch. I now wonder, do singers with absolute pitch have a harder time to transpose?

Bellyman

iternabe, it's a good question, and one I'd never really contemplated before.

I did sing as a younger person but I remember that it was often the goal to NOT use music, to have it memorized. I suspect I play the piano in a very similar way as I find reading (music) very tedious. I tend to learn "tunes". Words just go along with some of them.

I saw someone do a YouTube talking about it (speaking of playing the piano) and explained it more as having the key as the base and thinking in terms of the intervals of the tune, something like 1 to 6 to 2 to 5 and back to 1, that kind of thing, doesn't matter what note of the scale a person starts on. Once you have your starting point, the intervals that follow are your guide, not so much the actual notes. If you start on the 2 and are doing a 2-5-1, and happen to be in the key of C, it would be a D chord, a G chord, and then a C chord. If you're in Eb, it would be an F chord, a Bb chord, and then an Eb chord. Etc. It's not about the note, it's about the interval. And at that point, it's a matter of the technical skills to actually hit the correct notes on a keyboard, your instrument, or your voice. (I hope I said that well enough. I know what I mean but sometimes have a hard time getting it out.)

iternabe

Bellyman What you described, I believe, is exactly how Movable Do Solfège works. There is also the Numbered Musical Notation widely taught in Eastern Asia. I learned some of this in elementary school music class. Now, decades later, I start to learn the Modern Staff Notation, the old habits has been both a help and a hinderance.

Sight singing a tune on the staff in any key can be easier if I read everything relative to the tonic note - this way no need to worry about sharp or flats, because 3-4 or mi-fa is always a half step, so is 7-1 or ti-do. The roman numeral chords (I-IV-V/V7) are also easy to see and recognize. This is also where scales practice comes in because it's super helpful if the association between solfège note name and finger becomes second nature in any key. I suppose that's how some people get good at transposing?

On the other hand, someone in PW forum mentioned a very valuable skill for sight-reading is the ability to associate the absolute note position on the staff to their position on the piano keyboard, without thinking. Relying on solfège or interval reading is like a crutch that hinders the development of direct association of positions. At least that what I am feeling so far.

candela

iternabe On the other hand, someone in PW forum mentioned a very valuable skill for sight-reading is the ability to associate the absolute note position on the staff to their position on the piano keyboard, without thinking. Relying on solfège or interval reading is like a crutch that hinders the development of direct association of positions.

In my mind it's beneficial to use a combination of both absolute and relative pitch when playing the piano. Caveat: my primary instrument is the clarinet, which I've been playing for decades since childhood. For the clarinet it's essential to immediately be able to know the possible fingerings for a particular note. It's not straightforward like a piano keyboard so as a beginner you couldn't just assume but had to learn and practice every single note individually and gradually increase your range. Seeing the note on the staff has to immediately trigger a corresponding fingering and air stream. Learning scales and arpeggios came somewhat later. So the absolute way of reading music is deeply ingrained in my mind and not cultivating immediate recognition of all notes on the grand staff would to me seem like a certain way to make sight reading immensely more difficult.
When starting to learn the piano a few years ago it took me several months to get to know the bass clef as solidly as the familiar treble clef but for me I couldn't imagine not making that effort.

However, for tasks like reading chords and arpeggios as well as harmonizing by ear or audiating the sheet music in my mind, intervals and solfeggio (together with a deep familiarity with different key signatures) are very useful. I consider it a complement not a crutch. Say for instance that your score has a triad chord in root position. If you immediately recognize the space-space-space or line-line-line "snowman shape" as a triad you only need to read the root and shape your hand correctly for the upper two notes which means a fraction as much attention there and more mental space to process other parts of the score. Same with scale runs etc. Also if you learn to hear the scale degrees of different chords and immediately know which absolute chords they correspond to in different key signatures it helps with memorization, playing by ear, and possibly to some degree reading.

Simonb

iternabe
Hi

It mIght have been me on PW.

I spent years learning to understand chords many decades ago, and not only did it give me a way into improvisation it also improved my sight reading.

I saw a great analogy recently where somebody (MRC on PW I think) equated reading music to reading sentences. When you read a word in a sentence you don't read each individual letter of every word you just read the word. That's exactly how I relate individual notes to chords. If I see G Bb D in a score I don't read each individual note I just automatically think Gm chord.

Now with very complex harmonies I sometimes struggle, but for a lot it's pretty much an instantaneous process. I see the notes on the page, but read them as a chord, and play the shape in the appropriate place on the Piano. For non-classical playing I play from chord charts all the time anyway, so the translation of chords to a pattern on the keyboard is ingrained in my playing now. But it definitely helps your classical sight reading as well.

I should add it took me quite a few years to develop this ability. Like anything on the Piano it took a lot of hard work, but the benefits are huge. For me it was mainly the chance to play in various Pop/Rock, Blues & Jazz bands over the last 4/5 decades, which you really can't do if you need everything written out on 2 staves in front of you.

Not sure whether this is on topic with the rest of the thread - apologies if I've drifted off it, or indeed if any of you have while reading this!

Cheers

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