keystring When I was sorting all this out, I did one of my "I've got weird questions" thingies with my teacher. Namely, do we:
(1) expend energy to press the pedal down, and relax for the pedal to push the foot back up

I hope this is the right answer. Because the pedal is something we pianists don't need to play piano. But we can add it to our playing. And we should be able to add it whenever we want, without a preparation phase. With preparation phase I mean something like resting the foot somewhere else on the floor and move to the pedal when we think we need it soon. And because the pedal is an optional ingredient, I want to have the luxury not to waste any energy if I am not using it.

(2) expend energy to raise the foot off the pedal, and let the weight of the foot lower the pedal

I hope this is plain wrong, because this is the opposite of above

keystring (3) a bit of both, depending

I hope, there is a way to avoid this situation too. But as you said - depending. And here there are some factors that are given:

  • the upward-force of the pedal
  • the weight of your foot in relaxed state. You may argue, this depends on the sitting position. But if the sitting position is chosen with regard of the hand to keyboard distance and the pedal is a fixed one on an acoustic or a digital cabinet, then there isn't that much one can change.

And then there are factors you can change:

  • which part of your foot touches the pedal.

If I am lucky, I should be able to find a sweet spot for my foot to rest on the pedal without pressing it, but still apply enough weight to make pressing down effortless easy. I just don't know if all combinations of pedals and shoes allow me to find this sweet spot. I am especially afraid of having a pedal that has too less of upward-force to lift the tip of my foot when I am wearing shoes.
Currently my conclusion is to pedal without shoes, or maybe have a pair of piano-pedal shoes. I mean, dancers need dancing-shoes, and we pianist need flexible shoes.

      iternabe Thinking about it, I believe this is a bad advice. In the worst case this can make you to get used to lift your ball of the foot actively. I still think this should be avoided. IMO we should somehow find a foot-position that keeps us in a ready-to-pedal position while the foot can rest on top of the pedal in a relaxed state.

          WieWaldi
          Pedaling with the ball of the foot is the standard recommended technique to play the pedal and absolutely does not require you to hold the foot above the pedal. Rest your heel on the ground and the ball of the foot on the pedal without depressing it. Use your heel as a pivot point. You have much more control over the pedal like that than with your toes (I can't even imagine playing the pedal with my toes 😆).

              iternabe Wouldn't seating distance to the piano play a role here, too?

              Absolutely yes - very good point. But the seating position should be determined by the distance from the shoulders to the keyboard. I think someone mentioned a good sitting position is, when we are able to touch with straight arms the fallboard on our fists. The pedal itself has a fixed position (unless you have a slab with a floating pedal).
              And leaning forward or backward too much is also something that could be regarded as a bad habit.

              This brings me to a big advantage of slab pianos - you can place you pedal on any position that is best for you. And you can bring your keyboard to the best ergonomic height, just think about very big or small people. With acoustics and cabinet-digis, you must handle what is given. period.

                I just tried to use my toes only and on my grand piano it's really uncomfortable but on my Roland I could do it. If you have a digital piano I see how you could think it's easier that way but I think it's a mistake.

                You see, digital pianos usually have a much lighter pedal than grand pianos and the resistance is not realistic. By that I mean that in a grand piano when you press down the pedal all the dampers must be lifted up, which is quite heavy, but if you press down only a little, like 20 percent then the dampers are still partially resting on the strings and you don't feel the full weight of the pedal yet. On a digital piano the pedal has a more uniform springy feel.

                Unfortunately, to really control the pedal you need to be very close to the point where the dampers are about to lift from the strings. To do that with your toes is very straining on the foot and it's much like using improper finger technique to press down on the keys instead of using arm weight and rotation.

                  BartK Pedaling with the ball of the foot is the standard recommended technique to play the pedal and absolutely does not require you to hold the foot above the pedal.

                  With all respect, I refuse to accept this rule. I replace this rule with
                  "Find a resting position foryour foot that does not press the pedal when relaxed, but allows you to press easily with little effort."

                  With socks, my big toe is in the center of the pedal. And the shaft of the toe touches the tip of the pedal. I can completely relax my foot and the pedal isn't pressed. Still, it is easily to press the pedal. It looks like the toe is pedaling, but actually I am whipping my foot because it is touching the tip of the pedal. Don't get me wrong - I don't pedal by bending my toe. But the ball of my foot isn't touching the pedal, either.

                  With shoes, the center of my toe is on top of the tip of the pedal. Basically, my foot is further away from the fallboard. If I try the same position as with socks, the pedal is constantly pressed a little bit. To be fair, the note is not yet sustained. But I can't tell for sure, if my foot is really relaxed or if I hold it up a little bit. I bet, with different shoes I will find another "sweet-spot" position. Okay - I have a digital and very likely the springs needs less force than an acoustic.

                  To make my explanation short: Each foot and each pedal is different - so there can not be a single rule like "the ball of the foot is correct position". Maybe it is true for most acoustic and most feet. But imagine a student has only a digital and his teacher is a true pianist who plays only acoustics. If the teacher tells to pedal with the ball of the foot is the rule, some students with digitals will end up to actively lifting the foot. No doubt, this works and it sounds correct. But I believe (but don't know) this is not the best way to pedal.

                      Ithaca Small nit-pick: with a grand, you can have shorter or longer legs & lyre made. With an upright, you can have pedal extensions made. It’s not cheap, but for someone who plays enough, it might be worthwhile.

                      Thank you 🤗. I was wondering about that for quite a while if this is possible, since I have seen Player1 having his knees in front of the keyboard. And concerning suggestions from several people to raise the keyboard-stand, he refused with the argument he wants to be able to play an acoustic grand, if needed.

                        @WieWaldi Especially for you - unconventional pedaling and music you like 😃

                          BartK You see, digital pianos usually have a much lighter pedal than grand pianos and the resistance is not realistic. By that I mean that in a grand piano when you press down the pedal all the dampers must be lifted up, which is quite heavy, but if you press down only a little, like 20 percent then the dampers are still partially resting on the strings and you don't feel the full weight of the pedal yet. On a digital piano the pedal has a more uniform springy feel.

                          This explanation really makes sense! Thanks @BartK

                          Although the Roland pedal I have is relatively stiff, it is indeed still is a spring with linear resistance. In Pianoteq I can customize the depression range where I want to damper to lift. But there is no way to solve its lack of a “bite-point” feel.

                            WieWaldi It looks like the toe is pedaling, but actually I am whipping my foot because it is touching the tip of the pedal. Don't get me wrong - I don't pedal by bending my toe.

                            OK, then I must have misunderstood. I thought you meant moving the toe independently like a finger. 😆 As long as the movement is a pivot of the foot from the heel then it is correct.

                            But if your pedal has so little resistance that it engages just from resting your foot on it then I would advise you to get a better pedal.

                                BartK I thought you meant moving the toe independently like a finger. 😆

                                Indeed - I tried it. But figured out very quickly this is plain wrong because it hurts, haha.

                                But I don't think my pedal is bad compared to other digitals, it is a standard Kawai pedal inside a cabinet. And maybe I am only afraid of having the pedal a little bit pressed (still without hearable effect). Maybe I am too afraid of accidentally pressing the pedal, so I force my foot with muscles to stay up if the foot at the wrong position.
                                I will sort that out over time - no worries. Yesterday, I started to play with my foot on the pedal even when I know I don't need it at all for a certain exercise. Just to get used to the tactical feel. And if I would accidentally press the pedal, I would hear it.
                                Thank you for your endurance answering beginners stuff ❤️ (I know I am difficult, some time)

                                  Sophia What a nice version of Kermit's song. And what a good example of a modified lyre - I searched for pictures of such pianos but didn't find them online. Thank you.

                                  Interestingly, he lifts the entire foot when pedaling. I think this is because people of his size are used to have the feet always from the ground, when sitting on a standard chair. I would even bet, he adjusted his bench exactly to a height, his feet touch the pedals slightly when relaxed. As I said, every foot and every pedal is different. The goal is to find a position, you need no muscle activity for a released pedal.

                                    My recommendation is this: when your leg and foot are relaxed, the pedal should be neither completely up nor completely down, but at the point where the dampers start to lift. This point is easy to feel on a grand piano: there is very little force needed to depress the pedal down to it, a definite increase as the dampers start to lift, and even more when the dampers lift completely above the string.

                                    The region between where the dampers are just starting to lift above the string and where they are barely touching it is where partial pedalling happens. Beginners won't be concerned with this, but when you get into more advanced pedalling techniques, it becomes very important to be able to control the movement of the pedal with the utmost subtlety in this region. Completely up and completely down are easy, but here you are constantly making minute adjustments of pressure, based on what your ears are telling you. It thus makes sense that this happens around the point where the foot is in a "neutral" position: the muscles at the back and the front of the shin have more or less the same tension (very little), and are able to control the tiny changes in force involved in "half" or partial pedalling.

                                    Here's a graphic representation of pedal pressure compared to distance travelled (from Yamaha Europe):


                                    When my foot is simply resting on the pedal, it's somewhere in the "Half Pedalling Range". If I have a long passage without pedal, I park my foot on the floor beside the pedal.

                                      MRC When my foot is simply resting on the pedal, it's somewhere in the "Half Pedalling Range".

                                      Currently I find it better to have the pedal pressure while resting somewhere in the lowest, maybe 2nd lowest range in your graph.
                                      I parked my foot on top of the pedal without using it - just to figure out what happens. And it happens that I press the pedal into a half-pedaling range from time to time when. This is the case, when I play difficult passages with my hands. Seems my body looses the relaxation, and some unwanted tensions make the pedal go down.

                                        MRC When my foot is simply resting on the pedal, it's somewhere in the "Half Pedalling Range".

                                        Looking at the graph again, this sentence confuses me. The half pedal range can be found in the graph on the horizontal axis. But a resting foot applies pedal pressure shown in the vertical axis. Let's assume you have perfect control, and your foot pressure is exactly on line 3. In this case you would not pedal when the pedal isn't pressed in the the beginning. Not even half pedaling. And when you press your foot down completely and the pedal bottoms, going back to pressure-line 3 would remain as full pedaling. Barely out of the half pedal range. In this case you would need to actievle lift your foot for a short time to release the pedal.
                                        Can you double-check if you are really actively lift your foot for a short time, when you want to release the pedal?

                                        • MRC replied to this.

                                            WieWaldi Can you double-check if you are really actively lift your foot for a short time, when you want to release the pedal?

                                            While I'm playing, my leg and foot are never in a completely relaxed, passive state (nor is the rest of my body, otherwise I'd just be a dead heap slumped over the keys!). My leg muscles are constantly adjusting the pressure of my foot on the pedal, always reacting to what I am hearing.

                                            • If the pedal is completely released, there is a certain upwards tension necessary to keep my foot from slightly depressing it: the muscles at the front of the shin that lift the foot are more tense than the calf muscles at the back (I'll have to look at some anatomical drawings to see exactly what muscles are involved).
                                            • If the pedal is completely depressed, the calf muscles are pulling more to keep the foot down on the pedal.
                                            • For all passages using partial or flutter pedalling techniques, the two groups of muscles are working more or less equally, but there are constant tiny changes, always guided by what I hear.

                                              My Faber book must have got tired of my questions and decided to give me a break with a couple of pieces that has no pedaling at all 😜. Then it presented this one with lots of pedaling! My YT teacher suggested several more changes, too. Here's my best effort so far.

                                              2 months later

                                              Faber Book 2 is introducing pedaling with more detailed instructions. I've been working on this very short piece for a week now. The pedaling took some real close observation, listening and fine-tuning. I feel I am slowly getting it. The pedaling marks on the page are made simple. Following Gale on Let's Playing Piano Methods YT channel proved very helpful because he emphasis thinking about the purpose of the pedaling and listening to the sound very carefully to hear the good effect (the bell like resonance) and the bad effect (the muddiness if pedal left held down for some bars in this piece). I heeded his suggestions and added some extra pedaling to make the sound good and clean. So here it is.

                                              As written in Faber book:

                                              2 months later

                                              From my "How do you annotate on sheet music" thread:

                                              BartK BTW, what's wrong with the indicated pedalling?

                                              iternabe It muddies up the melody. Assuming the purpose of pedaling is to connect the chord changes, pedal only needs to be down before the chord change and that sounds much cleaner.

                                              This is my (modified) pedaling. I probably put the pedal down still a bit too early and added some overtone to the last note before chord change. Still, I feel it's much better than muddying up the entire melody line by holding the pedal down through each entire measure.

                                                  a month later

                                                  Did I mention I love the pedal? I know, only a thousand times ^_^ So here I am back with another question, this time about finger pedaling.

                                                  I'm learning Trumpet Tune and the sheet music shows that after the low D in the second bar, the A should be played with the 5th finger. And then in the 3rd bar, the higher D should be played with the 1st finger. But without using the actual pedal, there is a gap between those two sounds.

                                                  So my question is, should I leave that gap, or try to close it like this?

                                                  Please excuse my terrible playing, I just started this piece. But before I spend a lot of time practising this, I figured I might as well learn it correctly 😄

                                                  Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide!