Ithaca If you observe the mechanism in an acoustic piano, the only thing the standard sustain pedal does is lift up all the dampers. In an acoustic, as soon as you lift the dampers, all the strings - even the ones you're not pressing - are free to resonate, so you'll also get what I think of an aural shimmer (or sound aura, or sound cloud, depending on my mood). And the quality of that sound depends on the piano. I don't know if your digital will do that; mine certainly didn't, but it was a very elderly Roland. (It was the first of the really good actions, but the native sound was meh.)

Today I tested my Roland FP-30X's built-in sound engine, and I'm surprised it actually does have sympathetic resonance. If hold down C2 silently, strike C3 then release (no pedal), the C2 will ring for quite a while as it remains held down. Same if I hold down G2 then strike C3, although the resonance will be weaker. I used to think sampled digital piano sound engine cannot do sympathetic resonance, and that would be one big reason to use modeled sound engine such as Pianoteq. Well, technology has apparently advanced that even mid-entry level DP now have this feature.

    Ithaca for a couple of measures on a new expensive Yamaha that seemed worse than my 20-year-old Roland

    Hard to believe, but I believe it. I sorted all the piano sounds on my digital from "bad" to "best", starting with the worst sound. And every time I have a major achievement, like a complicated song or finishing a complete online course, I level up and allow myself to use the next better piano sound. And despite the fact the sound should get better every time, I think by myself the last one was better.
    This is due to the fact that we got used to a certain sound, and everything that is different sounds worse in the first moment. And of course - if I play the new sound for some hours, I like it more than the previous one. Sure - the new sound is better - I sorted them.

    Let me rephrase my first sentence:

    Ithaca for a couple of measures on a new expensive Yamaha that seemed worse than my 20-year-old Roland

    Hard to believe, but I believe you believe it. Realistically, there is no way a 20 year old Roland beats a new Yamaha sound wise.

        Ithaca Are any of these the same engines as the ones on some of the mid-range DPs?

        I would say they use the exact same engines. And I would say they use the high-end engines, not the mid-range ones. But: It could be the engines on the silent pianos are more likely a generation older because there isn't the same update cycle as on digitals. So yes - a yesterday's high-end engine is probably as good as a current mid-range.

          Ithaca Good point. I have this instant love of the new sound only, if the new sound is in a different leage. Something that is not from the same planet. (E.g. my "Modern piano" sound is really awful compared to all other piano sounds). Could be the same, if you compare an acoustic to a ditigal. Maybe even worse, haha.
          May I ask if you use the digital with onboard speakers or with headphones?

            I recently came across a YouTube video about pedalling. I can't vouch for the teacher in this video - I know nothing about her but looked at her channel after following a YT rabbit hole - but it seems like a well demonstrated explanation of some fundamentals.

              TLH21 I recently came across a YouTube video about pedalling....

              I wish that when I restarted piano (had been self-taught as a child decades before) I had seen this video. These are the things I missed totally and then had to relearn and retrain - they are the very things. We can get all the things about timing between hand and foot, using our ears and the rest - but how far does the foot move up and down? how does the motion work physically in the foot? Things like that. This is excellent.

                Ithaca Funnily enough one of her videos (not this one) came up as an autosuggestion after having an Enya afternoon. Must have been something about the calm and soothing...

                  TLH21 The first minutes of this video is very helpful. It was an easy thing to figure out when to press and when to release the pedal, but how you do it mechanically is still a problem for me.

                  Currently I can only pedal comfortable without shoes, having the shaft of the big toe on the pedal. Exactly as she described in the video, but with socks. In this position I can rely that the pedal-springs are strong enough to lift my toe up without the need to do it actively by myself. Before that I had a too big portion of my foot on the pedal and was always afraid the weight of my foot is enough to press it down. Therefore I used my muscles to lift the foot instead of just relaxing. Still, I tend to fall back into that habit to actively lift my foot with muscles.

                  What I still don't know is how to pedal with shoes. Because with shoes my big toe is not that flexible and I have the feeling too much of my foot-weight is resting on the pedal and I start to lift my foot actively again. Shouldn't it always be the case to have a lifted pedal when the foot is totally relaxed?
                  Or is it really normal to always use a bit of tension or some force to keep the pedal lifted when wearing shoes?

                      WieWaldi Currently I can only pedal comfortable without shoes, having the shaft of the big toe on the pedal. Exactly as she described in the video, but with socks. In this position I can rely that the pedal-springs are strong enough to lift my toe up without the need to do it actively by myself. Before that I had a too big portion of my foot on the pedal and was always afraid the weight of my foot is enough to press it down. Therefore I used my muscles to lift the foot instead of just relaxing. Still, I tend to fall back into that habit to actively lift my foot with muscles.

                      I feel less of a weirdo to see someone else looking at things I had to work out, where it seemed I was the only one to "obsess about details" but that twisted path ultimately helped me. 😃

                      I highlighted "weight of my foot" because I wondered, how much weight does a foot actually have? If the foot is heavy, could the weight of the leg (or more) be contributing? If one leans slightly forward to play, what holds the shifting weight of the body? The tripod of seat and feet - so the heel of the left foot, and also the right foot. When I was fixing my pedal mechanics, I was partly leaning into the front of my foot - in my case there was a mess to fix.

                      The pivot point at the ankle also isn't quite where we think. Thomas Mark's "What Every Pianist Should Know about the Body" goes into that on one page - I was quite surprised at the time.

                      When I was sorting all this out, I did one of my "I've got weird questions" thingies with my teacher. Namely, do we:
                      (1) expend energy to press the pedal down, and relax for the pedal to push the foot back up
                      (2) expend energy to raise the foot off the pedal, and let the weight of the foot lower the pedal
                      (3) a bit of both, depending

                      The answer: probably either one depending on the pedal of that particular piano.

                      And when we push the pedal down, maybe some of the impulse does come from the front of the foot (toe area) because the foot isn't just one long clump: its structure is as complex as the hand.

                          WieWaldi What I still don't know is how to pedal with shoes. Because with shoes my big toe is not that flexible

                          I think that might be the reason some advise operating the pedal with the ball of the foot? That way, the motion with and without shoes is the same.

                              Ithaca But I’ve seen people who couldn’t make a 90 degree angle between their shin and foot, which definitely changes the dynamics of pedaling for them.

                              Wouldn't seating distance to the piano play a role here, too?

                                  keystring When I was sorting all this out, I did one of my "I've got weird questions" thingies with my teacher. Namely, do we:
                                  (1) expend energy to press the pedal down, and relax for the pedal to push the foot back up

                                  I hope this is the right answer. Because the pedal is something we pianists don't need to play piano. But we can add it to our playing. And we should be able to add it whenever we want, without a preparation phase. With preparation phase I mean something like resting the foot somewhere else on the floor and move to the pedal when we think we need it soon. And because the pedal is an optional ingredient, I want to have the luxury not to waste any energy if I am not using it.

                                  (2) expend energy to raise the foot off the pedal, and let the weight of the foot lower the pedal

                                  I hope this is plain wrong, because this is the opposite of above

                                  keystring (3) a bit of both, depending

                                  I hope, there is a way to avoid this situation too. But as you said - depending. And here there are some factors that are given:

                                  • the upward-force of the pedal
                                  • the weight of your foot in relaxed state. You may argue, this depends on the sitting position. But if the sitting position is chosen with regard of the hand to keyboard distance and the pedal is a fixed one on an acoustic or a digital cabinet, then there isn't that much one can change.

                                  And then there are factors you can change:

                                  • which part of your foot touches the pedal.

                                  If I am lucky, I should be able to find a sweet spot for my foot to rest on the pedal without pressing it, but still apply enough weight to make pressing down effortless easy. I just don't know if all combinations of pedals and shoes allow me to find this sweet spot. I am especially afraid of having a pedal that has too less of upward-force to lift the tip of my foot when I am wearing shoes.
                                  Currently my conclusion is to pedal without shoes, or maybe have a pair of piano-pedal shoes. I mean, dancers need dancing-shoes, and we pianist need flexible shoes.

                                      iternabe Thinking about it, I believe this is a bad advice. In the worst case this can make you to get used to lift your ball of the foot actively. I still think this should be avoided. IMO we should somehow find a foot-position that keeps us in a ready-to-pedal position while the foot can rest on top of the pedal in a relaxed state.

                                          WieWaldi
                                          Pedaling with the ball of the foot is the standard recommended technique to play the pedal and absolutely does not require you to hold the foot above the pedal. Rest your heel on the ground and the ball of the foot on the pedal without depressing it. Use your heel as a pivot point. You have much more control over the pedal like that than with your toes (I can't even imagine playing the pedal with my toes 😆).

                                              iternabe Wouldn't seating distance to the piano play a role here, too?

                                              Absolutely yes - very good point. But the seating position should be determined by the distance from the shoulders to the keyboard. I think someone mentioned a good sitting position is, when we are able to touch with straight arms the fallboard on our fists. The pedal itself has a fixed position (unless you have a slab with a floating pedal).
                                              And leaning forward or backward too much is also something that could be regarded as a bad habit.

                                              This brings me to a big advantage of slab pianos - you can place you pedal on any position that is best for you. And you can bring your keyboard to the best ergonomic height, just think about very big or small people. With acoustics and cabinet-digis, you must handle what is given. period.

                                                I just tried to use my toes only and on my grand piano it's really uncomfortable but on my Roland I could do it. If you have a digital piano I see how you could think it's easier that way but I think it's a mistake.

                                                You see, digital pianos usually have a much lighter pedal than grand pianos and the resistance is not realistic. By that I mean that in a grand piano when you press down the pedal all the dampers must be lifted up, which is quite heavy, but if you press down only a little, like 20 percent then the dampers are still partially resting on the strings and you don't feel the full weight of the pedal yet. On a digital piano the pedal has a more uniform springy feel.

                                                Unfortunately, to really control the pedal you need to be very close to the point where the dampers are about to lift from the strings. To do that with your toes is very straining on the foot and it's much like using improper finger technique to press down on the keys instead of using arm weight and rotation.

                                                  BartK Pedaling with the ball of the foot is the standard recommended technique to play the pedal and absolutely does not require you to hold the foot above the pedal.

                                                  With all respect, I refuse to accept this rule. I replace this rule with
                                                  "Find a resting position foryour foot that does not press the pedal when relaxed, but allows you to press easily with little effort."

                                                  With socks, my big toe is in the center of the pedal. And the shaft of the toe touches the tip of the pedal. I can completely relax my foot and the pedal isn't pressed. Still, it is easily to press the pedal. It looks like the toe is pedaling, but actually I am whipping my foot because it is touching the tip of the pedal. Don't get me wrong - I don't pedal by bending my toe. But the ball of my foot isn't touching the pedal, either.

                                                  With shoes, the center of my toe is on top of the tip of the pedal. Basically, my foot is further away from the fallboard. If I try the same position as with socks, the pedal is constantly pressed a little bit. To be fair, the note is not yet sustained. But I can't tell for sure, if my foot is really relaxed or if I hold it up a little bit. I bet, with different shoes I will find another "sweet-spot" position. Okay - I have a digital and very likely the springs needs less force than an acoustic.

                                                  To make my explanation short: Each foot and each pedal is different - so there can not be a single rule like "the ball of the foot is correct position". Maybe it is true for most acoustic and most feet. But imagine a student has only a digital and his teacher is a true pianist who plays only acoustics. If the teacher tells to pedal with the ball of the foot is the rule, some students with digitals will end up to actively lifting the foot. No doubt, this works and it sounds correct. But I believe (but don't know) this is not the best way to pedal.

                                                      Ithaca Small nit-pick: with a grand, you can have shorter or longer legs & lyre made. With an upright, you can have pedal extensions made. It’s not cheap, but for someone who plays enough, it might be worthwhile.

                                                      Thank you 🤗. I was wondering about that for quite a while if this is possible, since I have seen Player1 having his knees in front of the keyboard. And concerning suggestions from several people to raise the keyboard-stand, he refused with the argument he wants to be able to play an acoustic grand, if needed.

                                                        @WieWaldi Especially for you - unconventional pedaling and music you like 😃

                                                          BartK You see, digital pianos usually have a much lighter pedal than grand pianos and the resistance is not realistic. By that I mean that in a grand piano when you press down the pedal all the dampers must be lifted up, which is quite heavy, but if you press down only a little, like 20 percent then the dampers are still partially resting on the strings and you don't feel the full weight of the pedal yet. On a digital piano the pedal has a more uniform springy feel.

                                                          This explanation really makes sense! Thanks @BartK

                                                          Although the Roland pedal I have is relatively stiff, it is indeed still is a spring with linear resistance. In Pianoteq I can customize the depression range where I want to damper to lift. But there is no way to solve its lack of a “bite-point” feel.