Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

Player1 Phrases are the combination of notes, slurs, ties, and everything else used to form a musical sentence. All the musical notation on the page is just punctuation. They're like commas, hyphens, semi-colons, and all that jazz. Phrases end in periods where the musical line stops and then a new line begins. Unfortunately for us, the use of periods in music is more like a suggestion than a hard fact.

Oh. I was thinking a slur was treated like a phrase.

In the video for E.K.N, the teacher said: "Look at the last measure of the 1st line there on page 47. It's here (plays the slur in M12), but then in the next line there's a different slur, so they want a little separation (hold up thumb and pointer finger spread a little apart, then plays M12 and M13 with slight space between). I disagree with that. I'd slur all of those together."

So, in the E.K.N piece, how would it sound different if there were no slurs indicated?

Gooseberry I think there is no indication of phrases in your examples. The slurs only indicate which notes should be played legato (and the ties - which notes should be held). Then when you play the piece you are free to shape the phrases as you think is suitable, but there is no marking for it in the text.

I feel I am getting the idea of how to phrase a (simple) piece. Well, at least until I came across these 2 pieces. I think I'm getting hung up on what is the purpose of the slur lines if all those notes are going to be connected as a phrase.

hebele My understanding from "Let's Play Piano Method" was also that the book doesn't state phrases explicitly. Most of time, he discusses whether that is just a slur or also a phrase. And gives his opinion. I first try to play a piece without listening anything then go check the channel and Faber audio/videos. And hope for the best

I do like the guys opinions on phrasings, and how the phrasing is a matter of interpretation. I do first try to play a piece before I listen to anything. But I'm starting to think I might start listening to a recording after I get it roughed in, before I spend too much time on it playing it in a way that doesn't sound right/good.

          Kaydia So, in the E.K.N piece, how would it sound different if there were no slurs indicated?

          Then you would play the whole piece non-legato (detached). I find it more difficult to make phrases when playing non-legato, but it can (and should) be done!

          Kaydia I feel I am getting the idea of how to phrase a (simple) piece. Well, at least until I came across these 2 pieces. I think I'm getting hung up on what is the purpose of the slur lines if all those notes are going to be connected as a phrase.

          It sounds as if you still confuse slurs lines - indicating that you should play legato and not non-legato - with phrases. I have checked the Alfred's book. I see that they are to blame as the ones who gave you this idea.

          Also, to add to this confusion, a lot of the pieces in the first Alfred's book don't have slurs, even though most students will play them as if they have slurs.

          However, a phrase can be fully non-legato. Or, a slur can stop in the middle of a phrase.

          Player1's example is very good.

          Do | a-deer | A-fe male deer | Re | A drop-of-|-gold en-sun

          Here is another example. You could say that the piece is divided into four phrases that then are repeated. The first phrase does not end when the slur ends, but when the three non-legato notes (chords) end.
          Thus, the first phrase is measure 1 and 2. The notes in measure 1 are played legato, the notes in measures 2 non-legato (detached).

          PS I see now that they very inconsistently put the slur over the last three similar chords. 🙄

          *
          ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...

                Thanks @Animisha for elaborating. I do hear what is being said, that slurs aren't necessarily phrases, and that slurs can be components of phrases. And to be fair, the Alfred's book does say Slurs often divide the music into phrases. And above that in red it clearly says it means play legato.

                Regarding the E.K.N. piece: In M10-M11the 2 slurs aren't connected. I assume that's because of the repeating C note*, but still sounds like a musical thought when it's played all together. So I understand M12-M13 is a phrase composed of slur+slur+repeating note. But what about the slurs in M12-M13 not being connected? That's the place where the Lets Play Piano Methods teacher said "they want a little separation" between those slurs (which he disagreed with).

                *Although, flipping through the book I see slurs with repeating notes under them.

                I find this video by Dr. Shijun Wang quite enlightening on how to understand slur in regard to phrasing. It also answered my question on why slur is needed when in certain music notes without slur are also played in legato by default.

                  iternabe I find this video by Dr. Shijun Wang quite enlightening on how to understand slur in regard to phrasing. It also answered my question on why slur is needed when in certain music notes without slur are also played in legato by default.

                  Thank you, iternabe. That was interesting to see how he counted time by the measure on a fast piece. His talk of shaping, though, was more interesting to me since it's more within my reach as a beginner. I think I naturally do some shaping sometimes, like with a higher note in a song I know. Other than that I'm sure I have been playing the notes mostly evenly. Well, now I'll be thinking more about shaping within a piece.

                    Kaydia Oh. I was thinking a slur was treated like a phrase.

                    A slur arch is a notation on how to play the notes contained within the slur. As you will learn, there are different ways to play notes. (Legato, Staccato, Marcato, etc) It is the technique between those different ways of playing which is indicated by the notations in the score. (Arches, dots, accents, hairpins, and so on.) Those differences create the "flavor" of the music beyond the melody/harmony.

                    You will learn all of this (and more) so don't fret about how much of it there is right now. Asking questions about things you don't understand is the right way to move forward as you follow the lessons in the book(s).

                        Player1 You will learn all of this (and more) so don't fret about how much of it there is right now. Asking questions about things you don't understand is the right way to move forward as you follow the lessons in the book(s).

                        That's good advice. I got stuck on this for a bit, but I'm ready now to get back to my lesson books. Thank you.

                          • Kaydia

                          • Post #65

                          Just a brief update: I moved on to learn a couple of pieces for practicing staccato notes. They were "Theme from the 'Surprise' Symphony" and "Hungarian Dance". I think they both went fairly well.

                            Kaydia

                            Good. Keep it up but be aware that the early lessons are extremely easy and you will slow down as you progress, with the result that each piece will take longer to learn.

                                Player1 I wouldn't say that the early lessons are extremely easy: nothing is, for a beginner 🤔 What really is easy is to forget how difficult everything was at the beginning... 🙃

                                    Player1 Good. Keep it up but be aware that the early lessons are extremely easy and you will slow down as you progress, with the result that each piece will take longer to learn.

                                    Thank you. I'm trying to soak it all in as I go along and not rush through the book. So actually, as the pieces get longer maybe that'd be a good thing as far as pacing goes.

                                    Gooseberry I wouldn't say that the early lessons are extremely easy: nothing is, for a beginner 🤔 What really is easy is to forget how difficult everything was at the beginning... 🙃

                                    I hear you, @Gooseberry! My finger dexterity and hand coordination are barely keeping up with the lessons. Hopefully working on the 40-pc challenge will help with that. 🙂

                                          Kaydia Hopefully working on the 40-pc challenge will help with that.

                                          Exactly. That's why I'm taking up the challenge too! 🙂

                                              Gooseberry Exactly. That's why I'm taking up the challenge too! 🙂

                                              That's great! I'm about to get some more practice in now on another piece for the challenge. Hoping to finish it up tomorrow. Good luck on whatever you're working on.

                                                Gooseberry I wouldn't say that the early lessons are extremely easy: nothing is, for a beginner 🤔 What really is easy is to forget how difficult everything was at the beginning... 🙃

                                                On the monetised forum, there was a long thread by a beginner, called Nothing is too easy.
                                                I know that quite a few people breezed through Alfred's 1 - I was not amongst them. Just learning to do something else with my right hand than I did with my left hand, mamma mia! It took me a long time. I also needed to play many more easy pieces than Alfred's provided. But I did, and in the end, I learned. 😊

                                                *
                                                ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...

                                                    Animisha Just learning to do something else with my right hand than I did with my left hand, mamma mia!

                                                    "mama mia!" indeed! 🙃

                                                    Animisha I also needed to play many more easy pieces than Alfred's provided. But I did, and in the end, I learned. 😊

                                                    Perseverance for the win! 💪

                                                        Another short update. I completed "Shepherd's Song (From the Sixth Symphony)". I was enjoying this one, so I stayed on it
                                                        longer. In doing so, I could really feel the difference in my playing as I was able to play more relaxed after repeated play throughs now and again over the past few days. I'm not saying it sounded better; more so that the physical aspect of it felt better. 😄

                                                        • Sophia

                                                        • Post #74
                                                        • Edited

                                                        I always get a kick out of going back to really early (now easy) pieces and find that I can basically play them flawlessly first run through. Then of course I got back to a piece that I just practiced a few weeks/months ago and can't string two notes together... wondering how on earth I managed to get a near flawless recording and then obviously promptly forgot all about it immediately afterwards. Learning piano is a weird thing 😃

                                                          Sophia I always get a kick out of going back to really early (now easy) pieces and find that I can basically play them flawlessly first run through. Then of course I got back to a piece that I just practiced a few weeks/months ago and can't string two notes together...

                                                          I find this depends very much on the piece. With pieces that have a simple melody with chords structure, it is easy, because chords like C F G D, I can basically play in my dreams. But in pieces that I call polyphonic, in which both the right hand and the left hand have a melody, after a while I need to relearn them as if I never learned them before.

                                                          *
                                                          ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...

                                                              Animisha But in pieces that I call polyphonic, in which both the right hand and the left hand have a melody, after a while I need to relearn them as if I never learned them before.

                                                              Do you at least find those pieces easier, quicker to relearn? I went back and relearned Jingle Bells, which I really struggled with to get HT and no hesitations. It was definitely easier and quicker to relearn. But that's a simple piece so perhaps not a good example. Maybe it doesn't work the same for more complex pieces.

                                                                  I'm not THAT far ahead of you, Kaydia, but I'd say it's definitely easier/faster to relearn pieces a second time 🙂