• Kaydia

  • Post #50
  • Edited

I've finished with Procession. I had also gone back to work some more on Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. And then I watched the videos for these pieces on the Faber website. It's a bit annoying to find out the performances didn't match what I see on the page.

For example, in Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, instead of using the phrase markings in the book, they made each section between the rests a phrase.

And for Procession, again instead of using the phrase markings in the book, they used 1 phrase for each line.

And, of course, they both sounded so much better that way. The teacher from the Let's Play Piano Method videos had suggested the same phrasing that the Faber performer used. I think I'm going to stick to his suggestions from now on. I guess I don't understand why the phrasing was done the way it was for those pieces in the book. It makes a huge difference in the way they sound.

Anyway, I've got a few technique and theory pages to work on, and then on to the Theme from the "Surprise" Symphony.

    Kaydia I don't understand why the phrasing was done the way it was for those pieces in the book. It makes a huge difference in the way they sound.

    The book "teaches" concepts that the student is capable of understanding at the time. As the student learns more, the concepts change or become more advanced.

    For instance; in your book the rests are marked with the word rest! only because the book is teaching recognition of the symbol to rest and the marks will go away in short order because the author assumes you learned what the symbol means and don't need it explained again and again and again forever. This will change/become more advanced as you learn there are different symbols for "rest" and what those symbols mean in their various iterations. But for now, you learned what a "rest" is. (By the way, when a pianist "rests" they lift and float that resting hand to give it something to do instead of freezing it to hover over the keyboard (like I do) because freezing it in place adds tension. Which is a bad thing.)

    Phrasing is a different animal entirely. It is the melody by which the music flows. Much like speaking, music has small pauses and inflections placed strategically so that it's not a run-on monotone of words. Part of learning how to spot the melody is learning where phrases begin and end. In your music, the rest! is an aid but you should be looking at the music too. Notice that there's a half-note immediately preceding the marking. The music holds on that note to draw it out and emphasize that point. Then it returns to the pattern which culminates in yet another half-note emphasis. These are the phrases (or "sentences") in the music.

    To help you spot this, try clapping the notes for the correct duration of the notes. (Claapp, claapp | clap-clap-clap | clap-clap claapp <-- pay attention to the arched lines in the score because they "link" the notes together like I used hyphens here.) You'll see where the phrases, as well as the small pauses and inflection/emphasis points are, and you'll learn to start to recognize the melody based on the sheet/notes rather than having to hear it first.

    You should actually clap to start but eventually you'll begin to do it in your head automatically as you look over the sheet music as part of preparing to play it.

        Re: "linking notes"

        In Procession, the whole notes aren't "linked" (called a slur) they're "tied." Hold the note for the duration of the tie (the length of time of the whole note and the following tied note)

        If a quarter note is a clap. And a half note is a claapp. And a whole note is a claaappp. Then a pair of tied whole notes would be a claaa------ppp. Held for 2 "claaappp" periods of time. In Procession the LH holds the G for the entire line of 4 measures because of the tie which sustains the note.

        Slurs mean that there's no pause between the individual notes but they are played as individual notes rather than one note being held longer than it's note value.

        You can google the difference between slurs and ties faster and easier than can be explained here.

          Player1 By the way, when a pianist "rests" they lift and float that resting hand to give it something to do instead of freezing it to hover over the keyboard (like I do) because freezing it in place adds tension. Which is a bad thing.

          Oh, I didn't know this. I'm all for trying to avoid tension so I'll give this a try.

          Player1 Notice that there's a half-note immediately preceding the marking. The music holds on that note to draw it out and emphasize that point. Then it returns to the pattern which culminates in yet another half-note emphasis. These are the phrases (or "sentences") in the music.

          I had not noticed that the quarter notes ending with a half note made up the phrase. I see what you're saying, that makes sense to me.

          Player1 To help you spot this, try clapping the notes for the correct duration of the notes. (Claapp, claapp, clap-clap-clap, clap-clap claapp <-- pay attention to the arched lines in the score because they "link" the notes together like I used hyphens here.) You'll see where the phrases, as well as the small pauses and inflection/emphasis points are, and you'll learn to start to recognize the melody based on the sheet/notes rather than having to hear it first.

          I tried the clapping, but I don't hear a phrase from doing that. I still don't understand the arched lines in the score if each group of 6 notes is played as 1 phrase. To me, the arched lines break it into 2 separate phrases.

          Player1 In Procession, the whole notes aren't "linked" (called a slur) they're "tied." Hold the note for the duration of the tie (the length of time of the whole note and the following tied note)

          Sorry, I may not have explained well. I wasn't referring to the tied notes. Those I understand. I was referring to the right-hand melody. It's similar to the previous piece where there's a section of notes with an arched line, but apparently the whole line (ie: measures 9-12) is meant to be played as a single phrase. So again I'm confused as to why there's an arch over only some of the notes on that line.

          Thanks for helping out. It's very much appreciated.

                    Kaydia

                    The arched line between DIFFERENT notes is called a "slur." It's there to tell you to play the notes together as fluidly as possible while keeping them separate and distinct. The arched line between the SAME note is a tie. It tells you to hold the ONE note for the duration of all the notes tied together. Tie a whole note for two measures and you hold that one note for an 8 count. (In standard 4/4 time.)

                    Phrases are the combination of notes, slurs, ties, and everything else used to form a musical sentence. All the musical notation on the page is just punctuation. They're like commas, hyphens, semi-colons, and all that jazz. Phrases end in periods where the musical line stops and then a new line begins. Unfortunately for us, the use of periods in music is more like a suggestion than a hard fact.

                    However, an exercise;

                    Doe, a deer.
                    A fe male deer.

                    Becomes;

                    Do, do-re
                    re, do, do, re

                    BUT, on the page those notes look like:

                    ~ A ~ | A-B ~ | B-A A B | ~ B ~| B A-A-|-A A-B

                    Translated into sounds and including the musical notation you're familiar with (and using a hyphen to indicate a slur):

                    rest! do rest! | do re rest! | re-do do re | rest! re rest! | re do-do-|-do do-re

                    Words:

                    Do | a-deer | A-fe male deer | Re | A drop-of-|-gold en-sun

                    You can clap it or sing it like it's written and find the phrases. When you do you'll find the melody.

                        Kaydia I think there is no indication of phrases in your examples. The slurs only indicate which notes should be played legato (and the ties - which notes should be held). Then when you play the piece you are free to shape the phrases as you think is suitable, but there is no marking for it in the text.
                        Please take what I say with a grain of salt, I'm a only a beginner too and may be wrong.

                            My understanding from "Let's Play Piano Method" was also that the book doesn't state phrases explicitly. Most of time, he discusses whether that is just a slur or also a phrase. And gives his opinion. I first try to play a piece without listening anything then go check the channel and Faber audio/videos. And hope for the best 🙂

                            Another thing I've realised (after checking out John Thompson method book), lyrics usually make phrases really obvious. And I'm always following the score when I read the words. Which was surprising to me.

                              Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

                              Player1 Phrases are the combination of notes, slurs, ties, and everything else used to form a musical sentence. All the musical notation on the page is just punctuation. They're like commas, hyphens, semi-colons, and all that jazz. Phrases end in periods where the musical line stops and then a new line begins. Unfortunately for us, the use of periods in music is more like a suggestion than a hard fact.

                              Oh. I was thinking a slur was treated like a phrase.

                              In the video for E.K.N, the teacher said: "Look at the last measure of the 1st line there on page 47. It's here (plays the slur in M12), but then in the next line there's a different slur, so they want a little separation (hold up thumb and pointer finger spread a little apart, then plays M12 and M13 with slight space between). I disagree with that. I'd slur all of those together."

                              So, in the E.K.N piece, how would it sound different if there were no slurs indicated?

                              Gooseberry I think there is no indication of phrases in your examples. The slurs only indicate which notes should be played legato (and the ties - which notes should be held). Then when you play the piece you are free to shape the phrases as you think is suitable, but there is no marking for it in the text.

                              I feel I am getting the idea of how to phrase a (simple) piece. Well, at least until I came across these 2 pieces. I think I'm getting hung up on what is the purpose of the slur lines if all those notes are going to be connected as a phrase.

                              hebele My understanding from "Let's Play Piano Method" was also that the book doesn't state phrases explicitly. Most of time, he discusses whether that is just a slur or also a phrase. And gives his opinion. I first try to play a piece without listening anything then go check the channel and Faber audio/videos. And hope for the best

                              I do like the guys opinions on phrasings, and how the phrasing is a matter of interpretation. I do first try to play a piece before I listen to anything. But I'm starting to think I might start listening to a recording after I get it roughed in, before I spend too much time on it playing it in a way that doesn't sound right/good.

                                      Kaydia So, in the E.K.N piece, how would it sound different if there were no slurs indicated?

                                      Then you would play the whole piece non-legato (detached). I find it more difficult to make phrases when playing non-legato, but it can (and should) be done!

                                      Kaydia I feel I am getting the idea of how to phrase a (simple) piece. Well, at least until I came across these 2 pieces. I think I'm getting hung up on what is the purpose of the slur lines if all those notes are going to be connected as a phrase.

                                      It sounds as if you still confuse slurs lines - indicating that you should play legato and not non-legato - with phrases. I have checked the Alfred's book. I see that they are to blame as the ones who gave you this idea.

                                      Also, to add to this confusion, a lot of the pieces in the first Alfred's book don't have slurs, even though most students will play them as if they have slurs.

                                      However, a phrase can be fully non-legato. Or, a slur can stop in the middle of a phrase.

                                      Player1's example is very good.

                                      Do | a-deer | A-fe male deer | Re | A drop-of-|-gold en-sun

                                      Here is another example. You could say that the piece is divided into four phrases that then are repeated. The first phrase does not end when the slur ends, but when the three non-legato notes (chords) end.
                                      Thus, the first phrase is measure 1 and 2. The notes in measure 1 are played legato, the notes in measures 2 non-legato (detached).

                                      PS I see now that they very inconsistently put the slur over the last three similar chords. 🙄

                                      *
                                      ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...

                                            Thanks @Animisha for elaborating. I do hear what is being said, that slurs aren't necessarily phrases, and that slurs can be components of phrases. And to be fair, the Alfred's book does say Slurs often divide the music into phrases. And above that in red it clearly says it means play legato.

                                            Regarding the E.K.N. piece: In M10-M11the 2 slurs aren't connected. I assume that's because of the repeating C note*, but still sounds like a musical thought when it's played all together. So I understand M12-M13 is a phrase composed of slur+slur+repeating note. But what about the slurs in M12-M13 not being connected? That's the place where the Lets Play Piano Methods teacher said "they want a little separation" between those slurs (which he disagreed with).

                                            *Although, flipping through the book I see slurs with repeating notes under them.

                                            I find this video by Dr. Shijun Wang quite enlightening on how to understand slur in regard to phrasing. It also answered my question on why slur is needed when in certain music notes without slur are also played in legato by default.

                                              iternabe I find this video by Dr. Shijun Wang quite enlightening on how to understand slur in regard to phrasing. It also answered my question on why slur is needed when in certain music notes without slur are also played in legato by default.

                                              Thank you, iternabe. That was interesting to see how he counted time by the measure on a fast piece. His talk of shaping, though, was more interesting to me since it's more within my reach as a beginner. I think I naturally do some shaping sometimes, like with a higher note in a song I know. Other than that I'm sure I have been playing the notes mostly evenly. Well, now I'll be thinking more about shaping within a piece.

                                                Kaydia Oh. I was thinking a slur was treated like a phrase.

                                                A slur arch is a notation on how to play the notes contained within the slur. As you will learn, there are different ways to play notes. (Legato, Staccato, Marcato, etc) It is the technique between those different ways of playing which is indicated by the notations in the score. (Arches, dots, accents, hairpins, and so on.) Those differences create the "flavor" of the music beyond the melody/harmony.

                                                You will learn all of this (and more) so don't fret about how much of it there is right now. Asking questions about things you don't understand is the right way to move forward as you follow the lessons in the book(s).

                                                    Player1 You will learn all of this (and more) so don't fret about how much of it there is right now. Asking questions about things you don't understand is the right way to move forward as you follow the lessons in the book(s).

                                                    That's good advice. I got stuck on this for a bit, but I'm ready now to get back to my lesson books. Thank you.

                                                      • Kaydia

                                                      • Post #65

                                                      Just a brief update: I moved on to learn a couple of pieces for practicing staccato notes. They were "Theme from the 'Surprise' Symphony" and "Hungarian Dance". I think they both went fairly well.

                                                        Kaydia

                                                        Good. Keep it up but be aware that the early lessons are extremely easy and you will slow down as you progress, with the result that each piece will take longer to learn.

                                                            Player1 I wouldn't say that the early lessons are extremely easy: nothing is, for a beginner 🤔 What really is easy is to forget how difficult everything was at the beginning... 🙃

                                                                Player1 Good. Keep it up but be aware that the early lessons are extremely easy and you will slow down as you progress, with the result that each piece will take longer to learn.

                                                                Thank you. I'm trying to soak it all in as I go along and not rush through the book. So actually, as the pieces get longer maybe that'd be a good thing as far as pacing goes.

                                                                Gooseberry I wouldn't say that the early lessons are extremely easy: nothing is, for a beginner 🤔 What really is easy is to forget how difficult everything was at the beginning... 🙃

                                                                I hear you, @Gooseberry! My finger dexterity and hand coordination are barely keeping up with the lessons. Hopefully working on the 40-pc challenge will help with that. 🙂

                                                                      Kaydia Hopefully working on the 40-pc challenge will help with that.

                                                                      Exactly. That's why I'm taking up the challenge too! 🙂

                                                                          Gooseberry Exactly. That's why I'm taking up the challenge too! 🙂

                                                                          That's great! I'm about to get some more practice in now on another piece for the challenge. Hoping to finish it up tomorrow. Good luck on whatever you're working on.