VSL - should I get the whole Piano bundle? [Pianoteq fork]

navindra

Re: VSL - should I get the whole Piano bundle?

The temptation is going to be strong to buy the whole bundle, even though you're not even that interested in most of the pianos.

You'll need to decide where to draw the line.

Personally, I made the choice that I would draw the line at Pianoteq, despite the well known pros and cons often discussed by the PianoClack crowd. I made my peace with that. I went all out and bought the Studio Bundle, but I worked to make it worth my while, and I recorded several videos with different Pianoteq pianos and customizations. I think I benefited from that musically.

I'm happy with that outcome!

From my perspective, VSL is a no-go because it requires a big computer with massive storage, but that is not an obstacle for others. This full bundle is going to consume what? 545.3 GB? That is quite a burden. With Pianoteq, you won't even see the computer — a mere Raspberry Pi — unless I want you to.

On the other hand, if there was one VSL piano I would get, it would probably be the Bösendorfer Imperial based on David B's various recordings. David B has gone on from piano to piano, but the Imperial is the only one that left a lasting impression on me.

A lot of people swear by Vienna Imperial, and from what I heard from KevinM, I like it as well.

https://vimeo.com/showcase/7313486

If I were in your shoes and I was convinced that the full VSL bundle would benefit me musically in some sense or the other, I would have no qualms about buying the whole package!

SouthPark

navindra and I recorded several videos with different Pianoteq pianos and customizations. I think I benefited from that musically.

Thumbs up on that navindra. I personally reckon selected members from there - won't mention names - keep bagging PTeq because they don't yet qualify to use it. Give them some more years in music learning etc, and they may come good in the end. May ... come good.

navindra

SouthPark I wouldn't say that, honestly. CyberGene has proven time and time again that he has an incredible ear. It's not that I can't hear the differences, it's that I go in knowing about the differences and understanding the pros and cons (and what works for me).

SouthPark

navindra I wouldn't say that, honestly. CyberGene has proven time and time again that he has an incredible ear.

He does have a 'good' ear. But he doesn't yet qualify to use PTeq in my own opinion. I, and a lot of us other people have very good 'ears' too. He's a formidable exponent - but he's not 'bible' or 'holy grail' etc in music, audio, and piano playing etc. And neither are we of course.

PTeq has heaps of fans that have piano and music skills and listening skills that are equivalent to or surpass cybergene - and those fans love PTeq. And that's good enough for me.

I have heard lots of examples of PTeq. PTeq, VSL/VST - ivory iii etc are all wonderful and great in their ways.

And even if cybergene is/were 'hypothetically' bible or holy grail ..... his and others continued ongoing poor attempts to poke/provoke the PTeq users is actually an issue in himself (themselves). Also ... sure ... pianoclack is open to all opinions - including his, and my ones too. However though, it all goes back to the clear pattern of him and others doing the high/low-horse thing whenever pianoteq topics arise.

navindra

SouthPark Don't want to get into a debate around this and crash this thread, but CyberGene's qualifications are off the chart as far as I'm concerned. Opinions will differ and that's OK with me. 🙂

johnstaf

SouthPark He does have a 'good' ear. But he doesn't yet qualify to use PTeq in my own opinion.

This is absolute nonsense, and very mean-spirited. How does Cybergene not qualify to use Pianoteq? Are people who share your tastes somehow more qualified than those who don't? CG is a friend of mine and we have heard each other play in person. He is a wonderful musician.

SouthPark

johnstaf This is absolute nonsense, and very mean-spirited. How does Cybergene not qualify to use Pianoteq? Are people who share your tastes somehow more qualified than those who don't?

It's the reverse j.s. I don't use PTeq yet ... but I know it is good stuff from listening to it. And there really are PTeq fans that are equally musically etc capable or more than you and cybergene. It's a sign of 'character' whenever a PTeq topic comes up and the usual select few keep saying the same negative stuff. But always keeping in mind that various people that love PTeq are as experienced as or more experienced than you and cybergene at piano playing, music, audio etc. It's not being disrespectful to you and cybergene. It's being respectful to those people that like/love PTeq, and the fans of PTeq.

It's ok at pianoclack to behave in the way some of you guys behave there, as they do cater for flame-war areas there in the special internal areas. But at the same time ... recall my boards don't hit back comment from over there. Basically ... it's some people like myself that are on the boards side. And will help them speak until a time comes when they can speak for themselves. But ... on the other hand ... I have heard PTeq speak (sing) ... and it is wonderful. It actually does 'speak' in its way. But doesn't hit back. It certainly speaks/sings though ... really well.

It all comes back to ... what I had mentioned before ... just because cybergene reckons ... no good, not good enough etc etc ... he's not bible/holy grail etc. So in the end ... things even out, as it is his/your words against mine and others. At least equalises.

Importantly ... I do have friends there at pianoclack. It's just that I can't communicate there any more, because cybergene asked me if I would voluntarily like to make a request for myself to be banned from there, and he indicated in the forum he awaited my 'response'. Of course I had to make the request if it came down to him 'needing' to ask me for a response.

And the very nice development is HeartKeys now acquired the full VSL package of goodies to enjoy. Getting even more into the music/piano paradise.

navindra

SouthPark If I'm going to summarize the essential essence of that, it's by taking the example of my teacher.

My teacher really does not care about piano specs. She doesn't care if it's an upright or grand or digital. She doesn't care about action buzzwords and she doesn't care about the technology. She doesn't even care if a piano is out of tune.

Instead, what she tries to teach me is to listen to the music I'm making and adapt accordingly. It's about what you hear, expressing your musical intention, and getting the best out of the instrument at hand. And so the specifics about when I press the pedal or not are not what matter, what matters is what I hear and that determines what I do with the pedal.

Ultimately you create the best music you can with the instrument you have.

Somewhere along the way, this doesn't resonate with some folks (myself included) and we also seek the best instrument with the ultimate tone... and that chase never ends. It can be fun though! There's disagreement and subjectivity all around, but it doesn't need to be an all or nothing game.

johnstaf

SouthPark It's not being disrespectful to you and cybergene. It's being respectful to those people that like/love PTeq, and the fans of PTeq.

Saying CG is not qualified to use Pianoteq is insulting, just because he does't like the sound of it. It is an attempt to discredit people based on their tastes.

I have never claimed that people who like Pianoteq are less knowledgeable than me, and neither has CG.

SouthPark

navindra If I'm going to summarize the essential essence of that, it's by taking the example of my teacher.

My teacher really does not care about piano specs. She doesn't care if it's an upright or grand or digital. She doesn't care about action buzzwords and she doesn't care about the technology. She doesn't even care if a piano is out of tune.

You really have a great teacher navindra. You definitely know that. My kind of teacher. Thanks so much for sharing that.

johnstaf Saying CG is not qualified to use Pianoteq is insulting ..

It isn't an insult. It's to equalise ... allowing PTeq to have a 'voice'. There was recently some VSL/VST discussion over there. It might be still going over there.

Anybody that has heaps of time on their hands can probably go through this thread here ... where somebody is genuinely demonstrating the art of 'button pushing' - aka pushing people's buttons, which is not good.

PianoTeq Thread

But if time is limited and of the essence, then read say the first ten posts or so, and the last ten posts or so - of the thread.

johnstaf

SouthPark It isn't an insult. It's to equalise ... allowing PTeq to have a 'voice'. There was recently some VSL/VST discussion over there. It might be still going over there

Nobody's stopping Pianoteq having a voice. Insulting people who don't agree with you doesn't give anything/anyone a voice. Belittling people because they don't agree with you is just about you. If we're talking about "over there" there are all kinds of views. A very popular view is that sampling is obsolete along with acoustic pianos. It doesn't bother anyone, as it's just people's opinions. It doesn't matter. Basic etiquette and respectfully interacting with people does matter.

I don't have any problem with you, so can we respectfully disagree?

rsl12

SouthPark

johnstaf Saying CG is not qualified to use Pianoteq is insulting ..

It isn't an insult. It's to equalise ... allowing PTeq to have a 'voice'. There was recently some VSL/VST discussion over there. It might be still going over there.

A friendly note--it's nice to know you didn't mean it as an insult, but I think anyone on the receiving end of a "you're not qualified to do X" statement would feel insulted if X is something they're perfectly capable of doing. If one wishes to make oneself clear after a statement like this, I think a good approach is to say "of course you are qualified to do X. I'm sorry it came out the way it did. I should have stated it this way...."

SouthPark

johnstaf A very popular view is that sampling is obsolete along with acoustic pianos. It doesn't bother anyone, as it's just people's opinions.

Sampling and acoustic pianos are definitely not obsolete. When the electrical power goes out for a relatively long time for example ... there will be music still coming out ... from acoustic pianos and instruments not requiring electricity ... eg. my erhu and my acoustic guitar, and my ocarina, and my harmonica, and also my didgeridoo.

Sampling plus modelling tech combined have proved to people (such as mac) ... that musical magic can and will be and is created from the hybridisation of sampling and acoustic modelling.

Eg. generating samples from acoustic model systems, and then adding ingredients to get even more substance including sympathetic resonance. Musical and magical substance.

At the moment, when computing power and speed/memory might still be limiting factors regarding realising what one wants to realise, the playing back of samples is an excellent approach. And comments about end-of-the-road for sampling is baseless. Excellent work is still being done in the area. And I have personally seen and heard and experienced the 'fruits' of the excellent accumulated work and efforts in the space of sampling and sample playback and effects ... and other areas in music/hardware/software/audio/materials etc etc technology.

Also ... as mentioned ... the driver ... the person at the wheel counts too.

With VST/VSL ... it's excellent. Excellent work. Thumbs up.

SouthPark

rsl12 I'm sorry it came out the way it did. I should have stated it this way...."

A friendly note too rsl. Nobody should tell or recommend or advise me to write something like I'm sorry. I just did not want to write something ... to avoid wrong impression ... like j.s. and cybergene and you etc all combined together are 'no match' for me when I'm in my element in piano and music. This will include using of PTeq. That's not an insult or being arrogant or whatever one wants to call it. It's basically hitting back ... for PTeq. And being honest about it.

Importantly ... I know you etc have your skills/talents/abilities too, and you are each also second to nobody or second to nothing when you are each in your element.

I don't want to get into the trap of what j.s. is doing ... as you should know too. Recall the piano thread ... eg. 'is an earwig a real wig? is a honeymoon a real moon, is a curate's egg ... is an easter egg'. The trap is in calling out something I see, which then my callout or response gets considered as uncivil behaviour etc.

rsl12

SouthPark A friendly note too rsl. Nobody should tell or recommend or advise me to write something like I'm sorry. I just did not want to write something ... to avoid wrong impression ... like j.s. and cybergene and you etc all combined together are not a match for me when I'm in my element in piano and music. This includes PTeq. That's not an insult or being cocky or whatever one wants to call it. It's basically hitting back ... for PTeq.

I see.

Jazzpunk

As this is a new community, I would like to go on record that I think it is in poor form and highly inappropriate to slander people who are not members of this forum and do not have the chance to speak for themselves. I know I would be very upset if I found out someone was talking about me behind my back and so I made a formal request that the posts about CyberGene be deleted. As the posts are still here, I can only assume that the mods feel this is ok but I hope that moving forward this will not be tolerated here.

I know many of us have come from other forums in search of a more positive community and it is disheartening to see people bringing their personal grudges and baggage from other forums into this one. My goal is to contribute where I can and support and uplift my fellow forum members. I have been feeling really good about this new community and hope it will not devolve into the type of petty bickering and insults that I have grown tired of on the other piano forums.

If the decision is to let these posts remain, I think it is only fair to notify CyberGene to make him aware and offer him the chance to respond if he feels the need to.

SouthPark

It's not that at all jp. He has been actually rubbing the PTeq founder/father's face and pushing his face into the mud, and stirring the nest ever since around day 1. And as you say - that is ultra poor form. The pattern is there - it is detected. It's always a case of veiled you-know-what on his part - toward PTeq and the owner. And it all begins with the same face-rubbing, followed by the tactical and strategic - 'I mean no offense or insult' etc -- and the 'father' of PTeq graciously says -- 'oh ... it's ok ... none taken' -- while actually copping the insult and absorbing/handling it like a champion.

Without messing up this thread - because it was actually quiet and was already sorted for a week or so - because everyone does know that PTell is for making a good difference - and is leaps and bounds ahead in every way from PW -- and also taking into account that you, myself, nav, heartkeys and cg are from PC too, so we're all linked, and all these forums are somewhat linked ..... it's necessary to just get back to the topic of VSL bundle, but at the same time - remind you of various exhibits, and that I'm on the side of the 'good' guys. Always. And just for indicating and showing what I mean, I'll just quickly link everyone to a few exhibits.

LINK1
LINK2
LINK3

Sure - it's ok to have opinions. But this isn't just a case of opinion. It's a case of thinking that they are too clever and get away with those 'tactics'. Also note that he is actually a member of Piano Tell too.

Note the pattern of .... "playability is great ... but I hate it ... don't get me wrong though ... it sounds like a toy and I hate it, even though playability is great ... but don't get me wrong though ... no insult or offence intended". Yeah ...right.

I haven't got any VST/VSL or PTeq etc yet. But I'm going to definitely tinker with them in future. And I know in advance already that I'm going to really like using them all.

navindra

Moderation note:

Hello Jazzpunk, sorry for the delay in the moderation team's response. We discussed your flagged message last week and decided to take a "wait and see" approach. The slightly heated discussion it generated seemed to die down naturally. In addition, while there are no official rules yet, we don't believe "making comments about someone outside the forum" will be disallowed, as it would be too restrictive of a rule.

We apologize for the unevenness of moderation, as we try to work out ourselves where the actionable line will be. It may be that, in the future, if a similar event occurs, we will revisit our course of action. But in the meantime, we appreciate everyone's help in making PianoTell a nice place to visit. You all help by flagging questionable comments and by engaging positively with your fellow users (even if they don't always respond likewise).

Personal note:

I personally highly respect CyberGene. I've learned a lot from him and I have a lot more to learn. In some ways, PianoTell may not have even existed without CyberGene's investment in PianoClack. I've also learned that CyberGene has an incredible musical ear along with all his engineering skills.

I believe CyberGene has a valid point on Pianoteq and he has worked harder than anyone here to help improve it, having been an early beta tester. I still like and use Pianoteq myself, but I recognize its faults and I understand CyberGene's feedback.

I'm locking this thread fork. Pianoteq discussions are more than welcome here (use the existing threads or start a new one), but there is no need to drag CG into it. Please!