How to cram learning pieces?

ranjit · 2024-06-12T01:25:28+00:00

Sometimes I try to learn 8-16 measures of a piece on the day of a piano class. So if the class is in the evening, I would try to practice in the morning/afte...

TC3

ranjit It's an interesting question, well worth discussing on a DISCUSSION forum. 😃 Thanks for starting the thread, and I wish I had some helpful advice for you.

Stub

ranjit Stub Your teacher (or other students) were doing this after learning the piano for how many years?

Yes, this was after at least 5 years, I think.

Are you sure? I assume a teacher teaching diploma level students probably started as a child, probably as a 5-10 year-old. ~~Assuming they're now at least in their twenties and probably older, that's more than 5 years.~~ Edited: Most students (teacher included) likely started under the age of ten and were probably not memorizing large chunks of difficult music in the space of an afternoon when they were 10-12 years old.

ranjit

Stub Are you sure? I assume a teacher teaching diploma level students probably started as a child, probably as a 5-10 year-old. Assuming they're now at least in their twenties and probably older, that's more than 5 years. Edited: Most students (teacher included) likely started under the age of ten and were probably not memorizing large chunks of difficult music in the space of an afternoon when they were 10-12 years old.

Yes, my teacher started when he was 15 and was at a top university by the time he was 20.

Stub

ranjit Yes, my teacher started when he was 15 and was at a top university by the time he was 20.

That is an n = 1. An anecdote.

Your teacher started at 15 and was at a top university at 20. Did your teacher explicitly state that he could memorize 16 bars of music in an afternoon for an evening lesson after five years of learning?

twocats

ranjit Even now, I'm pushed up against my limit pretty often. I will tell my teacher that I managed to practice a piece for 6 hours on a given week, and he will ask me why I haven't made considerably more progress: that with 6 hours of practice, he would expect a page of music to be learned pretty well. So this question is important to me. I know that there is something really inefficient about the way I'm practicing and learning piano, and it needs to be fixed.

There's also natural talent (you'd mentioned he has a semi-photographic memory). It sounds like perhaps he was a piano prodigy, and there really isn't anything you can do to turn yourself into one.

MRC

ranjit We don't always have the luxury of time, and so it's very important to learn to do this IMO. I can not imagine a high level professional pianist not having this ability.

I can assure you that not all high level professional pianists have this ability. Having this ability will also not necessarily mean that you are capable of becoming a high level professional.

There is no recipe for quickly becoming a super crammer. What you can do is look for ways of making your learning process over days and weeks more efficient. You've said your teacher was disappointed at the amount of progress you made with 6 hours of practice on a piece. The first vital question is this: 6 hours solid, or 6 hours spread over the week? If you practice a piece for 1/2 hour in the morning and 1/2 hour in the evening for 6 days, you'll make much more progress than if you do the same total practice time on that piece in one day.

ranjit

MRC You've said your teacher was disappointed at the amount of progress you made with 6 hours of practice on a piece. The first vital question is this: 6 hours solid, or 6 hours spread over the week?

It is about an hour a day, for 5-6 days.

He did talk about how to practice. I just find it hard to implement his advice outside of a lesson because it is so cognitively demanding. He had me practice in specific ways during the lesson and timed me. He asked me to first read the right hand of two measures, then the left hand, slightly under tempo, with the correct hand movements until I got it correct three times in a row, each. Then, to play the entire thing slowly and correctly 3 times in a row. I could play the two measures (of a very difficult piece) after 12 minutes.

Then, he said you would repeat that method for 1.5-2 hours, and that you would solidly learn 8 measures. And so within a week, that would add up to say 40 measures (or at the very least a page) played at a very good level. It makes perfect sense, but I find it very hard to do this. I felt like I was dying after those 12 minutes because it required so much concentration. The fact that I could pull it off during a lesson means it's possible though, so I'm getting very frustrated with myself.

BartK

ranjit Even now, I'm pushed up against my limit pretty often. I will tell my teacher that I managed to practice a piece for 6 hours on a given week, and he will ask me why I haven't made considerably more progress: that with 6 hours of practice, he would expect a page of music to be learned pretty well. So this question is important to me. I know that there is something really inefficient about the way I'm practicing and learning piano, and it needs to be fixed.

If your teacher is disappointed in your progress then he should provide ways to make your practice more efficient and help you make better progress. Did he ask how you're spending that time and what you are doing specifically during practice? Did he suggest how you can make it better? Just expecting "considerably more progress" but not helping the student achieve that is pretty useless IMO.

ranjit

Stub Did your teacher explicitly state that he could memorize 16 bars of music in an afternoon for an evening lesson after five years of learning?

Well, after around 10-12 years of learning (I think), he memorized the entire sixth Hungarian Rhapsody the night before his lesson in an 8 hour marathon session. That's way more than 16 bars. He also told me that his teacher expected an entirely new piece memorized each week during his undergrad (he was one of those who felt like multiple lessons on the same piece is a waste of time).

Sophia

I don't have any advice to offer, but I am following the discussion with interest.

Ranjit, I have a question: Are you aspiring to qualify for a conservatory and make piano your career? If so, people might be more inclined to offer more pointed advice aimed at your situation. But if your goal is to have another fun topic like your visualisation thread, this discussion would automatically become more abstract.

Either is completely fine, but sometimes I find it helps to know a little more about the situation of the person who is asking so that I can adjust my reply. Not that I have any wisdom to share either way in this case 😄

ranjit

Sophia Are you aspiring to qualify for a conservatory and make piano your career? If so, people might be more inclined to offer more pointed advice aimed at your situation. But if your goal is to have another fun topic like your visualisation thread, this discussion would automatically become more abstract.

I try to avoid specific details unless it's absolutely necessary, because it can dissuade people from posting imo.

keystring

Ranjit: stream of consciousness:

Cramming just before a lesson doesn't work in any case. If you're a good sight reader (you've told us you're not) then you can sort of wing it but even then not really. I've heard teachers say "My student came in basically sight reading. Obviously they didn't practice all week. There's not much moving forward we can do on the piece this lessons."
So on that front there's the situation causing you to cram last minute. I'm assuming that you're extremely strapped for time and couldn't practise all week. Time optimization? Find a way to make 10 minutes daily highly effective, if that's all you have?
I'm also thinking of the habit and ability to study the score before working on it. I don't mean writing in/knowing chord names, or the RN I IV V7 I deal. What is the overall structure? Making a 2nd copy that you can mark up with coloured pencils. Let's take something predictable: a simpler sonata allegro form: [(introduction)] [exposition with 2 themes] [development] [recapitulation] [(coda)]. The two themes; move to Dominant key and back (for the stereotypical older ones). Swaths of things that repeat or almost repeat: patterns that you can recognize but don't need to take the time to listen to the music or play it through to first suss it out. This can save you time.

The other part of playing is identifying difficult parts, getting at them first, having a strategy. But with all that, you should allow it to gel over a number of days (even if you only have 10 minutes/day) because that's how the brain and nervous system work.

This:

ranjit My piano teacher talked about cramming entire Liszt pieces in 3-4 days, or shorter Liszt pieces like those from his Pilgrimages in hours.

and

ranjit And my teacher expects note perfection and good musicality, which is impossible with my terrible sight reading skills.

Sorry, I don't see much guidance in either of these things. The "cramming" to me can set up unrealistic expectations and even feelings of not being up to snuff compared to this teacher (who I think left a whole lot out). The expectations do not show me any sign of guidance. Are these things that you should actually be aiming for?

(edit: I had no idea I'd end up with bullet points)

Pallas

keystring (edit: I had no idea I'd end up with bullet points)

I love bullet points. Thanks for taking the time to give such an organized response. I learn a lot by watching this kind of conversation, so, thanks.

ranjit

keystring Cramming just before a lesson doesn't work in any case. If you're a good sight reader (you've told us you're not) then you can sort of wing it but even then not really. I've heard teachers say "My student came in basically sight reading. Obviously they didn't practice all week. There's not much moving forward we can do on the piece this lessons."

I don't think it's impossible. Keep in mind that we're talking about practicing hours a day, not just 10 minutes. Saying "it doesn't work in any case" is not fair because you've only seen what you've seen. It is not typical, but I'm sure it can be done.

keystring So on that front there's the situation causing you to cram last minute.

Well, if I have a lesson in 3 days (including lesson day) and only end up managing 6 measures per day, then I could either present 12 measures, or try to present 18. Also I procrastinate sometimes and it is much easier to motivate yourself to practice for a very long time on the last day rather than the first. It is like how you can study for 8 hours the night before an exam, but if you were asked to work with that same level of efficiency on some random day, it would be immensely difficult.

So I'm trying to find a way to make this "cramming" work for me.

ranjit

keystring Could you respond to the suggestions? It's discouraging to put in the time and it seemingly ignored. thanks.

Definitely, didn't mean to ignore them. I do pretty much all of the things you suggested already (analyzing form, listening). Identifying difficult parts is something I would do typically, but nowadays I just try to learn and get things up to speed very quickly since the pieces I'm working on don't really have sections which would require several weeks to get up to speed. But if I was, say, working on a Chopin etude, that might be my appropriate.

keystring Sorry, I don't see much guidance in either of these things. The "cramming" to me can set up unrealistic expectations and even feelings of not being up to snuff compared to this teacher (who I think left a whole lot out). The expectations do not show me any sign of guidance. Are these things that you should actually be aiming for?

He talked about the exact strategies he used. It was a discussion that took place for over an hour. See my reply above for some of the ideas he talked about regarding learning pieces.

ranjit

ranjit He did talk about how to practice. I just find it hard to implement his advice outside of a lesson because it is so cognitively demanding. He had me practice in specific ways during the lesson and timed me. He asked me to first read the right hand of two measures, then the left hand, slightly under tempo, with the correct hand movements until I got it correct three times in a row, each. Then, to play the entire thing slowly and correctly 3 times in a row. I could play the two measures (of a very difficult piece) after 12 minutes.

Then, he said you would repeat that method for 1.5-2 hours, and that you would solidly learn 8 measures. And so within a week, that would add up to say 40 measures (or at the very least a page) played at a very good level. It makes perfect sense, but I find it very hard to do this. I felt like I was dying after those 12 minutes because it required so much concentration. The fact that I could pull it off during a lesson means it's possible though, so I'm getting very frustrated with myself.

I'll be more clear for some context. My teacher is trying to get me to fully learn 1 page of the Prokofiev 3rd sonata (preferably at tempo) per week. And I'm underprepared so it is a challenge.

BartK

ranjit Then, he said you would repeat that method for 1.5-2 hours, and that you would solidly learn 8 measures. And so within a week, that would add up to say 40 measures (or at the very least a page) played at a very good level. It makes perfect sense, but I find it very hard to do this. I felt like I was dying after those 12 minutes because it required so much concentration. The fact that I could pull it off during a lesson means it's possible though, so I'm getting very frustrated with myself.

I see a flaw with that reasoning. For me at least even if I learn to play a few bars (or a page or whatever) perfectly several times in a row, the next day they will not be perfect. I need to repeat the same bars for a few days to solidify. I don't see how you can just add more material every day and still retain the previous material at a high standard. My own personal standard for how much I can learn in a week is the same amount I can digest in a single sitting. But I'm lazy and nowhere as ambitious as you so take if for what it's worth.

twocats

ranjit He also told me that his teacher expected an entirely new piece memorized each week during his undergrad

I went to a performance by Dr. Indrek Laul (from Estonia Pianos) and he said that he studied under Peter Serkin and it was the same thing, a new piece every week. I was horrified! But on mentioning it at PW I think it made sense that he would get the feedback during the lesson and then presumably be good enough to internalize the changes needed, and then move on to the next piece for efficiency. It seems unbelievably intense, though.

Are you getting enough sleep? I ask this in all seriousness, because sleep is the basic foundation for anything energy and concentration-related. Also there are other things that can be checked, like Vit B, Vit D, or magnesium deficiencies, which can cause fatigue. If you already have the strategies from your teacher but lack the ability to concentrate, there are things that might help.

Sophia

No problem, it wasn't a trick question. Of course you realize that by keeping your goals deliberately vague, you invite answers along the lines of "what's the point?" 🙂 But if you're okay with that, then, well, who cares, right? 😃

ranjit

Sophia No problem, it wasn't a trick question. Of course you realize that by keeping your goals deliberately vague, you invite answers along the lines of "what's the point?" 🙂 But if you're okay with

Yeah, you're right. I guess the point is to learn faster. If you can maximize what you can learn in a day, you maximize what you can learn in a week.

twocats

ranjit Also I procrastinate sometimes and it is much easier to motivate yourself to practice for a very long time on the last day rather than the first.

Would it help your motivation to know that the neuroscience behind learning means that you'd get more benefit from practicing a very long time on the first day rather than the last? (Though ideally you'd break it up into several days in a row.)

It really helps me. When I'm not motivated to practice I think "if I do it today, my brain is still learning in the night so I get the progress for free!". And the earlier you do it, the more free progress you get!

You said earlier that you're clearly doing something inefficient, and I think procrastinating is that thing. If you want to make your time work more efficiently for you, you need to stop trying to cram at the last minute and make sure you sleep enough.

keystring

ranjit So I'm trying to find a way to make this "cramming" work for me.

You responded only to two thoughts of what probably won't work well, given the info that I had. You did NOT respond to any of the suggestions that were possible tools. At least some of them might help in this cramming-over-many-hours bit (the hours bit was an unknown). Could you respond to the suggestions? It's discouraging to put in the time and it seemingly ignored. thanks.

Pallas

twocats Those Molly Gebrian videos were really great, with all the studies they did on what's happening in our brain when we learn and how it actually works, physiologically. I like how she says it's actually less work to front load the work because of how much neuron construction is happening when you sleep!

ranjit

twocats Would it help your motivation to know that the neuroscience behind learning means that you'd get more benefit from practicing a very long time on the first day rather than the last?

Maybe I could insist on practicing that long on only the first day. That might be interesting.

By "practicing long", I mean practicing all the way until your concentration gives out, somewhere around 5-6 hours.

I'm aware of the neuroscience behind sleep and so on, but think it's not the full picture. There are also "flow states". I have never been a "disciplined" student, and I'm not sure that's all there is to it.

In college, I would often not attend any lectures for a class (or very few), and cram the entire syllabus the night before the test. So, that would be some 6-8 hours of very intense work interspersed with breaks, which would be sufficient to get a decent grade. If you could study with that intensity on the first day of college, it would mean that you could study everything that's there in all of your subjects within the first week, and then not have to study for the rest of the semester. I have never seen anyone do that (I've seen several who did what I did) -- and I think the reason is that the deadline and pressure just gets you to be so much more effective than you would otherwise be. It hasn't truly worked out that way with the piano yet so far. Maybe there just hasn't been enough pressure to force me into working that hard? I'm not sure.

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