Simple question about hybrid pianos

Animisha · 2024-06-11T09:33:54+00:00

If I play a hybrid piano, and I turn the volume down so it is not as loud as an acoustic piano, is the sound still much better than a top end digital piano?

Animisha

Thank you for your answers!

The only reason I am thinking about (very loosely though) hybrid pianos is reading about how much better acoustic pianos sound compared to digital pianos. And was hopeful that a hybrid piano would sound almost as good.

I have neighbours below, above and next to me, plus a mild hearing impairment that I don't want to get worse, so unfortunately, an acoustic piano is not an option.

kotlos

Animisha If you don't mind using headphones, the sound at least in the Yamaha hybrid models is great and probably better than without headphones.

Animisha

kotlos If you don't mind using headphones

I do. To protect my ears (you know, mild hearing impairment...) I try to avoid headphones.

TC3

Animisha I get that. I have some hearing issues (tinnitus, hyperacusis) and headphones bother me a lot. I'd rather play through speakers and turn down a bit.

iternabe

Animisha I do. To protect my ears (you know, mild hearing impairment...) I try to avoid headphones.

I wonder if it is scientifically proven that headphones damage hearing more, if the sound pressure level measured at the ear is the same as non-headphone originated sound. In other word, it may just be the volume, not how it is produced or delivered?

One caveat is that is it a lot harder to accurately measure SPL of a headphone than anything else (speaker, ambient, etc) due to the enclosed placement. Maybe open-back headphones are slightly better?

Animisha

iternabe I wonder if it is scientifically proven that headphones damage hearing more, if the sound pressure level measured at the ear is the same as non-headphone originated sound.

My audiologist says that using monitors is generally less detrimental to hearing compared to headphones. This is because speakers deliver sound from a distance, reducing direct exposure to the eardrum and allowing sound to disperse more naturally.

kotlos

If an acoustic is out of the question, then you could try out a digital one as they might be good enough. The Kawai CA901 with its soundboard comes close to an acoustic. Many users like the action as well.

Animisha

I have VPC-1 with Pianoteq and beautiful monitors. I am quite happy, but I just read too often that the sound of an acoustic piano is so much better than the sound of a digital piano...

rogerch

Animisha I have VPC-1 with Pianoteq and beautiful monitors. I am quite happy, but I just read too often that the sound of an acoustic piano is so much better than the sound of a digital piano...

Hi Animisha! Whether the sound of an acoustic piano is better than the sound of a digital piano depends on the pianos being compared. I think that even an entry level digital piano will sound better than a poorly maintained acoustic piano of any kind.

I have a Kawai ES920 and a baby grand, and to me the baby grand sounds better. It's also many times more expensive and costs a lot to maintain. In 2021 I sent my piano off to a rebuilder for 6 months, and had a different baby grand as a loaner. The loaner was not in good shape and I hardly played it all. The ES920 played and sounded much better than that loaner!

I once played on a Steinway D in a concert hall, and the experience was so much better than my baby grand that I'm still haunted by it. But I still love to play on both my baby grand and on my ES920!

If you're happy with your setup I suggest sticking with it, especially since you wrote that an acoustic piano is not an option. I've never played a VPC-1 but I've read that they have excellent actions, and with good monitors you probably already have an amazing setup that's wonderful to play!

Jane

Animisha

I have VPC-1 with Pianoteq and beautiful monitors. I am quite happy, but I just read too often that the sound of an acoustic piano is so much better than the sound of a digital piano...

So what's wrong with being happy? 😃

So, consider two factors - sound and feel.
Hybrids try to approach the feel of an acoustic. Living in an apartment with cardboard walls I bought a hybrid in 2013 and felt it was a big step up from the digital pianos I'd used prior.
But some non-hybrids work very well. Below is a link I've previously posted of David Lai playing Mozart on a VPC-1.
Taushi has written that he sold his N1 hybrid and replaced it with a Casio. So there are certainly alternatives to hybrids played by quite competent pianists.

Sound, as you've seen from pianoteq, can be added in wide variety to a digital or hybrid keyboard. I occasionally use the native sounds of my N3 but have mostly been using Ivory 3 lately.

And then, what is an acoustic piano? My parents started me on a junky honky-tonk upright they'd bought for $30 that had had its player mechanism removed. It might have been fine in a bar, but there was no way to make beautiful sound on it. A few times in my life I've had the opportunity to play on a well-kept 9-foot Steinway or Yamaha.
All of those are acoustics. I'd guess that either of the 9-foot grands will have a sound much better than your setup, and my original upright a sound (and action!) much poorer.

So... budget, environment, personal taste... all are factors.

So much for your "Simple" question about hybrid pianos 😉

Animisha

Thank you all!

rogerch I've never played a VPC-1 but I've read that they have excellent actions, and with good monitors you probably already have an amazing setup that's wonderful to play!

Word! ♥️

SouthPark

True. It also depends on what music is being played as well. No one music type is overall better than another. It's the combination between the instrument, and the driver, and the music and the environment etc that delivers the musical magic. Even a (example) 10 dollar piano delivers golden special music all of the time in my opinion. Because - music is special. Even playing just one note is special.

Eg. performance in G sharp :

keystring

TC3 I believe Kawai markets a line of digital pianos that they call "hybrid" that is less about the action and more about combining the speaker technology with a soundboard that actually vibrates acoustically

I have one of those. It is the same version as the hybrid without the soundboard. That hybrid is created primarily for the action. The soundboard is an extra perk on top of that, rather than instead of.

TC3

keystring Very cool!

On a related note, my Roland GP609 (though not billed as a hybrid piano) has a similar effect by way of the sound board and chamber. It sounds so nice at a suitable volume that I have trouble making myself turn it down ...

amathusiast

Undoubtedly, there were many instances where I preferred my VPC-1/Pianoteq w/ Bechstein D282 over an acoustic. When I was piano shopping I tried so many pianos that were unsatisfying. The great things about the VPC-1/Pianoteq combination (or any good digital set up) are 1.) they are always in tune, 2.) they are consistently "regulated" and voiced, 3.) you have access to the concert grand version, i.e. a beautiful sounding bass. 4) you have a model that captures the key characteristics of your favorite manufacturer, and 5.) if you record, it's easier to find a satisfying result, than tinkering with mics on a grand. Having gotten used to a digital setup, it set a really high standard for an acoustic to meet. I've had techs and salespeople tell me, I must be used to a digital, based on my expectations of consistent responsiveness and evenness of tone. Nonetheless, I found what I wanted in an acoustic and it's hard to turn back. A properly set up concert grand at home is incredibly hard to beat, as it fills the room so beautifully (assuming, it is placed properly, etc.) You feel like you are playing the room, and not just something 2 feet away from you. I know you are weary of headphones, but I found using my BeyerDynamic Semi-open headphones to work really well. Being semi-open, you can still hear ambient background noise, like birds singing outside, or for better or worse your phone going off. I could never get monitor speakers to sound right with Pianoteq, although including a subwoofer really helped.

iternabe

amathusiast I know you are weary of headphones, but I found using my BeyerDynamic Semi-open headphones to work really well. Being semi-open, you can still hear ambient background noise, like birds singing outside, or for better or worse your phone going off. I could never get monitor speakers to sound right with Pianoteq, although including a subwoofer really helped.

I have two open back headphones (Sennheiser HD558 and HD600). Then, out of the same concern about protect my hearing, I got a pair of studio monitors (JBL 306p Mk2). The studio monitors sound remarkably close to the headphones. They may lack a little bit in the bass, but their fidelity is markedly better than my semi-audiophile bookshelf speakers (Pioneer BS-21).

I do have a SPL meter and used it to verify the sound volume settings. I am no audiologist. However, the theory of speakers being less detrimental to hearing due to sound dispersion does not quite make sense to me. Our ears are sensing sound pressure/energy at the ear drum. They can't tell where the sound source is placed or how it arrived. The same energy at the ear drum (which we sense as the same volume) should cause the same harm to hearing, provided the frequency profile is the same. Therefore, even if we sit farther away from the speakers, they could be equally detrimental if we turn up the speaker volume so that they feel just as loud as what we hear from our headphone.

I suppose there could be convincing correlation between headphone wearers and impaired hearing. But that could just be caused by headphone wearer's higher tendency to turn the volume up - because headphones don't bother people surround you as much as the speakers. I remember reading about a rule of thumb that if you can't hear finger tapping on a desk surface while wearing headphones, your volume is too loud. In my experience, it is surprisingly easy to exceed that volume.

Back to SPL meter. I measured at my listening position (ears), with my settings, the sound pressure ranges from 65dB (p) to 85dB (ff). That in theory should be a safe range, especially considering we aren't playing ff all the time. One thing I did notice, because of the SPL meter, is I must be sure I turn off the on-board speaker of my Roland when using studio monitors. Having two sets of speakers firing at the same time greatly increases the sound pressure reading.

Animisha

amathusiast Undoubtedly, there were many instances where I preferred my VPC-1/Pianoteq w/ Bechstein D282 over an acoustic.

This is also my one HUGE favourite!

However, your description of a concert grand is very tempting. But, a room that fills so beautifully for me, will probably make my neighbours not very happy.
(It is not that I am overly concerned with my neighbours' happiness, but my fear is that when they get bothered by my playing, they will turn on their music on a high volume in order to drown out my music, and then my room will be filled with their music...)

I am very happy with my monitors - maybe because I had not very good ones in the beginning, and when I bought these, oh.... the sound was so much more beautiful!

HeartKeys

Animisha But, a room that fills so beautifully for me, will probably make my neighbours not very happy.

What sort of living are you in? A condo/ apartment/ house?

Just wondering since that has impact on how much a neighbor could hear you.

Animisha

HeartKeys What sort of living are you in? A condo/ apartment/ house?

Apartment. I am quite clear about what my neighbours can hear, because I can hear them. 😉

pseudonym58

FWIW, there's something about a digital piano that to me is always "one step removed"; as if I'm playing a recording of a piano. I've never played an (entirely) digital piano where the action felt comparable to a first-rate grand. But there is no question to my mind that a good digital piano is more gratifying to play than an out-of-tune, mediocre or poor quality acoustic.

HeartKeys

Something to also keep in mind, is how our expectations can impact how satisfied we are as well.

While it’s argued that a concert acoustic piano sounds better, one can quickly feel dissatisfied if their piano doesn’t sound perfect. After all they’ve spent a huge sums of money (even if used) on a piano.

With a digital/hybrid, we generally know what we’re getting and if we have an enjoyable VSL/ Pianoteq feel and sound, and knowing we paid a fraction for it; and don’t have to do maintenance, then it’s a great experience.

As a loose analogy, I live in suburban neighborhood where many homes are newly custom built. We bought a spec home, and it wasn’t customized. We just said “it’ll do” and bought it. We’re quite satisfied. Meanwhile those who had custom built were livid, when numerous things were not precisely as designed or expected. I attribute this to, us expecting not a whole lot, and were happy with what we got.

Going back to pianos (acoustic/digital/hybrid), we have two pianos that we need to dust, hand clean each day due to having pets. We also notice lots of inharmonicity due to inevitable pitch issues. We have to be conscious of the hammers, and also notice peculiarities on certain notes. Having invested so much of our time and money on them, we “expect” them to sound and feel phenomenal. Thus more room to be let down.

All those issues are nonexistent with non-acoustics. Last night I let my wife use my iPhone Pianoteq while she was studying some music theory, and commented how amazing it sounds for a pocket device and how far tech has come with regards to pianos. I also enjoyed a late night playing on my Pianoteq from my iPad. We weren’t on our grands, and were nonetheless satisfied.

While it’s nice to imagine having a concert grand, once you have it, it’s like hedonic adaptation where your satisfaction level goes back to equilibrium. I absolute adore our acoustics but if a catastrophe happened such as a tornado, I won’t cry much about losing them.

So having a concert grand certainly is nice. And so is having a digital or hybrid. It’s ultimately in our own minds and attitudes and life view, that dictates our level of satisfaction 🙂

Pallas

HeartKeys I'm so very grateful for this perspective. I may one day get my dream piano, but I can rest assured that the future piano will have its quirks too. There's a constant "grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" FOMO thing that's not helpful when a grand piano is just not the right choice for you. Yes, an SK-7 is on another planet from my Yamaha upright, but I know for sure that the Yamaha's inevitable quirks bug me less than they would in the SK. (I might still buy the SK one day, but it's very helpful to know that I'll need to manage my expectations.)