Apps (or other) to help figure out chords

BicBic

Figuring out what any chords are beyond basic major, minor, dominant and dim has always been hard for me, probably because I never learned it (if it wasn’t in grade 5 theory I don’t know it!)

I’ve been trying to memorise a piece recently for banter, and I have found that knowing and understanding the chords helps me do it. But often I can’t figure out the chord! In this case, it seems to be so simple yet I don’t know what it is. It’s D, G, C, A.

Yes I could google it pretty quick and have not done so. Does anyone have any suggestions of good apps or anything else to help with this? Presumably with some help I’ll start to figure it out myself more easily!

TC3

Those notes could be a number of things, depending on the context. It especially depends on which note is the root (which is not alway the bottom note). What tune is this from?

BicBic

TC3
It’s bar 7 of the first piece in Schumann kinderszenen

As an example of my lack of knowledge, I have no idea what D7sus4 means… well except the D7 part. Maybe I need some kind of theory book?!

My piano presumably does have a midi output I would guess but no idea what pianoteq is or how to use it! Though I see people talk about it a lot!

TC3

P.S.: In the absence of anything else, and assuming D is the root, I'd just go with D7sus4.

iternabe

If you have a digital piano that can output MIDI, the Pianoteq software can show chord name as you play in realtime.

I don’t use it to learn chords, but it’s great for verification.

iternabe

BicBic My piano presumably does have a midi output I would guess but no idea what pianoteq is or how to use it! Though I see people talk about it a lot!

Pianoteq is a piano VST (Virtual Studio Technology). It is a software that emulates a piano, by taking keyboard input (key press timing, velocity, duration, etc.) and produce piano sound. The sound engine inside your digital piano does the same job, but it uses pre-recorded sound samples which is limited by the onboard storage capacity. Pianoteq uses modeling (i.e. algorithm computed in realtime) to generate the sound, thus giving it more capability and nuance.

Pianoteq has a free trial version you can try out. It's a huge step up for my Roland FP-30X and made me a convert.

TC3

BicBic Yep, I would say D7sus4.

So D7 (or D "dominant" 7) would be D F# A C (in some order or other, with D as the root note, often in the bass, as it is here).

Sus4 means instead of a third, you use the 4th. In this case, that's G instead of F#. It is often used to resolve to the third, which is does in this piece in that very same measure, just the next chord.

Hope that helps! Let me know if I haven't explained it clearly / fully enough.

ranjit

Agreed, it's D7sus4. You count up from the root, which counts as 1.

So 4 = G (DEFG -> 4)
7 = C (DEFGABC ->7)
A third (3) is implied (you need to know this), so that would be an F#.

It's pretty simple, really. I sometimes feel like a lot of people make it needlessly difficult for themselves.

Pallas

ranjit Some of us don't know anything yet (speaking for myself, in the "royal" we). Give us time to catch up. 😜

TC3

Pallas I'm a teacher (philosophy, not music) and I have to catch myself when I tell students that things are easy. I mean it to be encouraging, but I realize it can make them feel bad about themselves. What I mean is "it's not as bad as it looks, give it a chance"! 😃 I'm quite sure ranjit meant it in that spirit as well.

Pallas

TC3 I'll take it! Thank you! I do absolutely believe that, and I appreciate it.

ranjit

TC3 I'm a teacher (philosophy, not music) and I have to catch myself when I tell students that things are easy. I mean it to be encouraging, but I realize it can make them feel bad about themselves. What I mean is "it's not as bad as it looks, give it a chance"! 😃 I'm quite sure ranjit meant it in that spirit as well.

Yes. I kind of meant it in the sense that people are afraid of music theory and teachers are often bad at teaching it. But when explained simply, a lot of it tends to be mostly counting, so to speak.

iternabe

Pianoteq says DGAC is D7sus4. I had to lookup Wikipedia to get a better understanding, and here is how I understand it.

First, D major triad is D-F#-A.
Then, add a seventh note (from root note D) you get a 7 chord, but there are two variations: add a major seventh note (C#), or a minor seventh note (C).
- A major-triad/major-seventh chord is called a major7 chord, so D-F#-A-C# is Dmajor7.
- A major-triad/minor-seventh chord is called a 7 chord (or a dominant seventh chord to be exact), so D-F#-A-C is D7.
Last, sus4 is replace the middle note of the triad with a perfect fourth.
- D-F#-A (D triad) becomes D-G-A (Dsus4).
- D-F#-A-C (D7) becomes D-G-A-C (D7sus4).
- D-F#-A-C# (Dmajor7) becomes D-G-A-C# (Dmajor7sus4).

iternabe

I have a followup questions, then. How would an advanced player be able to figure out a complicated chord like this instantly, without resorting to a long theory based analysis?

In the Alfred Scales and Arpeggios book, at the end of each scale there is the Dominant Seventh Arpeggio (in root position and 3 inversions). I suppose if someone practiced those into muscle memory, then they would instantly recognize the chord is similar to D7 (or one of the inversions) with only one slight difference (which makes it the sus4).

How else could this be done?

ranjit

iternabe How would an advanced player be able to figure out a complicated chord like this instantly, without resorting to a long theory based analysis?

Not sure if I'm an advanced player, but I trained myself to do this quickly. The method I used was to train myself to visualize a keyboard in my head, and then visualize how a major scale looks. Then, I can instantly see the 1,3,5,7 scale degrees of the major scale. In this case you have the b7 for the dominant seventh chord. Not sure how other people do it. Studying music theory really helped for me -- it forces you to see key relationships and you get pretty efficient at it with practice.

TC3

iternabe This is just my view for what it's worth.

Music theory without ear training is ... well, odd. Musitc theory is just a description of what's going on musically, a way to describe what you're hearing. So you don't just memorize a bunch of mathematical combinations, you learn to give a name to the chords, scales, etc., that you're playing.

Just like when you learned simple major and minor chords and scales. You probably played them and heard the difference. Then when you heard them later, you said "Ah, that's a major / minor chord / scale." So, just that. But more. 🙂

Sus4 chords in particular are often used in a way that the 4th resolves to the 3rd. Play that bar over and over and you'll hear what I mean. Then you'll hear it again someday in a different context and go "Ah, sus4." 😃

BicBic

iternabe i did think it sort of felt like D7 but I was like - I can see it’s not! So what is it!

BicBic

Thank you all for the really helpful explanations! I guess my question is, what is the best way to get the basic understanding of this stuff that I can then put into practise?

TC3

BicBic Ideally: holistically and from very early on, integrating theory, ear training, sight reading, and playing of course. Assuming you can't turn back time and start from scratch, you might be able to find some decent instructional materials. Unfortunately, I'm not super familiar with what's out there these days. Maybe some other posters will have some recommendations. I will warn you that a lot of theory books I've seen look like great reference manuals, but they'd be terrible as progressive methods ...

ranjit

BicBic Thank you all for the really helpful explanations! I guess my question is, what is the best way to get the basic understanding of this stuff that I can then put into practise?

I found it best to start with an easy first introduction to functional harmony. Maybe some YouTube videos or online courses covering the topic.

BicBic

ranjit thank you - I will take a look and see what I can find!