Can even the top end hybrids really satisfy a grand player?

petrofied · 2024-05-28T02:47:48+00:00

Can any high end digital hybrid players/owners make the claim that their experience on their digital hybrid (like the ones with actual grand wood parts and...

petrofied

What hybrid grands are you speaking of in particular? Thanks for the reply interesting thoughts ...

Jane

At one time, Sara Davis Buechner said she was using a Yamaha hybrid for practice.

keff

During the covid lockdown my piano went out of tune so I decided to have a look at the Kawai NV10S hybrid and Kawai CA99 digital just in case I find it difficult to find another tuner after my current tuner retires. The CA99 had a soundboard and I thought its sound and accompanying vibrations were very good. The action wasn't an acoustic action. The NV10s has a Kawai grand action which felt as it should. Its sound was made by speakers and it was this that didn't seem realistic to me. I tend to think that the sound would have been satisfactory if I had been using head phones. The other thing was that I tried these models in a dealership where pianos were closely packed so I may not have received a true impression.

Perhaps Kawai may install a soundboard on the next model of NV10S and then perhaps we would have a contender.

Josephine

I have a kawai cn29 and it always takes done time to adjust to my upright piano.

Last year I played a Kawai grand a few times and I was really surprised that the action felt the same as my digital piano. The sound of the grand was much better of course, and playing dynamics was also much easier on the real grand piano.

SouthPark

petrofied It's not the same. Even acoustic grand pianos among various kinds aren't the same as each other.

Digital pianos - even not hybrid ones - have their own powerful features and sounds, and mechanical control mechanism (coupled to the digital side of the system). Yes indeed, a lot have sounds that are recorded 'samples' - but then some special conditioning and amending and adding is done - some technological magic.

So - overall - depending on the music played, and depending on the person doing the playing - and the environment etc - even a digital non-hybrid piano (which is a piano, a real piano, just as acoustic pianos are pianos - also real piano - from which the essence is piano forte comes - shortened to piano) cannot be matched in musical 'fire power' and musical elegance.

BartK

SouthPark It's not the same. Even acoustic grand pianos among various kinds aren't the same as each other.

That's a good point too.

Josephine

Oh, I'm in the wrong thread, I thought this was the thread about practicing on a digital piano. I don't have a top end hybrid piano. So just ignore my post.

David-G

Josephine @Navindra Josephine wrote: "Oh, I'm in the wrong thread, I thought this was the thread about practicing on a digital piano. I don't have a top end hybrid piano. So just ignore my post.".

This exemplifies a basic design problem with Piano Tell (and with PianoClack). It is often hard to know which thread you are looking at. This never happened with PW, because every post there contains the thread title. Aside from Josephine's observation, I have noticed that not infrequently I find myself "lost" here, in the sense of not knowing what thread I am in.

So @Navindra if at all possible, you should do something about this. I don't mean put the title in every post - but there might be somewhere in a non-scrolling part of the page where you can put the title? Maybe at the top?

BartK

I don't claim to have much experience playing hybrids so take what I say with a grain of salt but to me the biggest difference is in the subtle shadings of the pedal. I use partial sustain and full or partial una corda all the time to add shades of color and I don't hear those colors on any digital. As I mentioned though that might be just my limited time playing them.

For general practicing and technique maintenance digitals are more than good enough but for me they will never have the same satisfaction factor as a real grand piano.

HeartKeys

I have a Kawai VPC1 I use for practice. I am fully satisfied with it as a practice instrument. But “satisfied” vs. “same thing” are distinct terms.

Because I have acoustic pianos as well, I can enjoy the sonic differences and have a real acoustic sound. Had I had no acoustic and only the VPC1, my satisfaction level might’ve been different.

But because I have the choice to play whichever one, then yes it’s quite satisfying and the VPC1 ends up being complementary for my playing.

Thus, a high end hybrid certainly would be satisfying for me… so long as it’s an addition and not replacement.

APianistHasNoName

I really enjoy my NV10S as a silent practice instrument- honestly probably the best you can get. However, nothing replaces the emotion and soul of an acoustic piano. I could not live with ONLY the hybrid/digital option.

JohnCW

Perhaps digitals have progressed to the point where its time 'pianists' looked at electric v acoustic the same way guitar players do. They both have 6 strings, a fret board, generally roughly the same shape, but considered by guitar players as two totally different instruments. One not better than the other, just different, each having their own unique qualities to create great music.

And for what its worth, my favorite 'piano' player only uses a digital.

Bellyman

JohnCW

G'day, John!

Years ago, I remember of meeting a guy from your area of Oz at a PTG conference, Ron Overs. He was building some pretty interesting pianos at the time, hung out talkin' physics with Del Fandrich and Ron Nossaman, I think, maybe a few others. Not sure if he's still around or not. The years slip by so quickly...

MacMacMac

Digital pianos have there place.
But I can readily feel the difference.
Even when just listening to YouTube videos the acoustic piano wins.

SouthPark

MacMacMac Digital pianos have there place.
But I can readily feel the difference.
Even when just listening to YouTube videos the acoustic piano wins.

I was brought up on acoustic piano - upright and grand - acoustic, just as a lot of people are/were/here. When I listen to both - acoustic and digital - they both win. A music and piano exponent will be able to showcase outstanding essence of music in one form or another on any piano. Even a 10 dollar one is special - and not to be out-done by a piano that cost eg. 200,000 or million dollar plus. What is important is essence of music. And play pianos. Any pianos. Piano players unite!

JohnCW

Bellyman G'day, John!

Years ago, I remember of meeting a guy from your area of Oz at a PTG conference, Ron Overs. He was building some pretty interesting pianos at the time, hung out talkin' physics with Del Fandrich and Ron Nossaman, I think, maybe a few others. Not sure if he's still around or not. The years slip by so quickly...

Yes, I know Ron. Not well but have been to his shop and had him consult on a job I was doing. Don't know what he's doing this days, as his webpage don't seem to have been updated for quite some time (looked at recently to see what he was up to).

Bellyman

JohnCW , I poked around online, saw he's on Facebook but nothing recent there. It reads as though he may have retired. If I'm guessing right, he would be about 70 years old now. Time has a way a marching on while we're out doin' other things.

SouthPark

David-G This exemplifies a basic design problem with Piano Tell (and with PianoClack). It is often hard to know which thread you are looking at. This never happened with PW, because every post there contains the thread title. Aside from Josephine's observation, I have noticed that not infrequently I find myself "lost" here, in the sense of not knowing what thread I am in.

So @Navindra if at all possible, you should do something about this. I don't mean put the title in every post - but there might be somewhere in a non-scrolling part of the page where you can put the title? Maybe at the top?

I mentioned somewhere else that PW's structure is actually excellent - the paging system. If they were to have an upgrade with the same structure, minus the intrusive ads etc, with proper direct file-uploading and handling features (eg. music and pics and web-linking like youtube linking), then that would be very formidable. It would take down flarum for sure, unless flarum has an option to have paging ... eg. page 1, 2, 3, 4 etc. And also incorporate the 'reply links' that allow users to jump to the source being replied to.

johnstaf

I don't think any concert pianist would choose a hybrid as a substitute. Sara Davis Buechner grew up with acoustics and plays them all the time. She's not using a hybrid to learn how to get the best out of an acoustic grand. Even if the action is convincing, digital pianos lack the tonal variation of a decent acoustic grand.

SouthPark

These days - the digis are able to inject other forms of interesting and wonderful 'goodness' into the sound, so that the piano player is able to get adequate variation and richness to generate music that provides every bit an excellent or outstanding musical experience.

Those very skilled pianists - including classical etc - will find ways to get the best out of any particular piano after they take some time to check out its behaviour, and then it's piano time.

Piano players can and will be hop onto any piano and give an excellent account of themselves. And when the time comes for a classical concert pianist to prepare for a concert, then they will have their preparation processes, and the show goes on.

It's known that at least one very well known concert classical pianist was/is using not only digital piano in their home ... but in particular ... playing digital 'slab' piano in their home. Their own digital slab piano. And it's not for advertisement, and not necessarily to practise her concert classical pieces, but we can expect they will/can play classical in one form or another on any workable piano.

There are examples of her digital slab online, which she parks very near to her acoustic grand piano, parked front-to-front (face-to-face) style, so she can hop from one to another by just turning around.

It is this concert pianist here ...

LINK

Rubens

I do wonder if digital piano makers have ever considered adding an element of inconsistency in how a note will sound even if the key is struck with the exact same mechanical parameters. I wonder if that would help replicate the unmistakable organic feel of an acoustic piano?

Pallas

Rubens There are some very interesting articles and videos out there taking about the sound quality differences been digital sampling versus modeling engines. If you're interested I'd be happy to circle back around with an interesting link or two. Stu Harrison of Merriam Music does a great job comparing and contrasting.

Jane

Rubens
One VST library (obviously not a digital piano, but an add-on for one) advertises "round robins."

The blurb for it on the B&H website says in part, "Round robin sampling involves recording multiple samples per note, so that when a note is played repeatedly, it is not triggering the same sample. "

An interesting concept...

sandalhome

Rubens

Digital piano makers may or may not have considered inconsistencies in sound, but Pianoteq - I know this tends to be an emotive subject, but some facts are just facts, whether you consider them relevant is another matter - has a condition slider which degrades the sound progressively to a honky tonk or worse and a number of parameters which randomly vary the sound slightly, all independently of each other. It suits some who are troubled by what can appear to be an identical machine-like sound. Please start a pro/anti Pianoteq thread if you wish, rather than derailing this thread. Thank you.