Post pictures of your pianos here!

TC3

Thanks! It can be a bit loud for a living room particularly if I'm playing back a full concert performance, but otherwise yes it's a very good spot for a grand piano- my wife and I had that on our requirements list when we bought the house about 5 years ago- 'must have a good space for a grand piano!'.

sysadmindave Anyway, I could natter on and on about it since I have a serious case of 'new toy' syndrome, but will leave it at that.

WOW. Please do share more if you can, there are a small few of us here who would absolutely LOVE to hear more about it.

Is this the same SE system demonstrated by Andres Schiff in early videos, where you needed to have a connected terminal hooked up, and instructions were sent to the piano via command line?

Gombessa
Ok- you asked for it, so here's lots more nattering...

YES, it's that exact same SE system you're thinking of, originally delivered with an IBM PC XT running MS-DOS 3.3. Mine is now running Linux from a tiny Intel NUC computer instead, but it came with the original IBM/DOS computer setup. Currently it's running command-line software (ported from DOS to Linux), but I envision a nice shiny web browser and tablet app interface for it in the future- in progress, but not anywhere near finished yet.

These pianos have been featured in a number of high-quality commercial recordings where the artist recorded on the piano itself using the computer, then the piano performance was audio recorded later as a computer playback (and sometimes with the artist watching). Also Wayne Stahnke produced a couple of CDs in the 90's entitled 'A Window in Time' featuring Ampico piano roll transcriptions of Sergei Rachmaninoff playing some of his own works (one CD) and some of other composers' works (other CD) using the SE system. The transcriptions came from a custom super-accurate Ampico roll scanner he built for the purpose.

There was also a highly regarded audio to SE project done by Zenph (now defunct), converting the 1955 audio recording of Glenn Gould's Bach Goldberg Variations into a performance done on the SE, then released as a CD.

Another couple CDs that come to mind are Dick Hyman playing the music of Fats Waller and Duke Ellington (recorded on SE). They were audio reference quality recordings and are also highly regarded.

These are all wonderful recordings, and they are all available on Apple Music and Spotify- I would encourage a listen!

I have personally been involved with these instruments since the mid-90s, working on repair and customization of the electronics and computer systems for a number of the owners of them, primarily those associated with the Maestro Foundation in Santa Monica CA. [https://www.maestrofoundation.org/]

The Maestro Foundation is a non-profit that lends high-end chamber instruments to gifted up and coming musicians that need them to progress in their abilities and who otherwise would not have access to such instruments. As a partial way to fund this project, they hold concerts for their donating members that often feature the Boesendorfer 275SE that the foundation owns (and is in the founder's house/concert hall in Santa Monica). This is absolutely the finest piano I have ever heard and is truly exceptional among Boesendorfers.

Over the years, I have assisted them with that instrument and others owned by the foundation members, as well as a few others- I've worked on 9 of the 32 that were made, including mine. The Maestro Foundation and other owners have collectively amassed a tremendous library of piano performances recorded on the SE system.

My association with Maestro is how I heard about this piano being available for sale and somehow at an attainable asking price for me, an engineer that loves music but isn't particularly wealthy. This instrument was previously at the University of Cincinnati Conservatory of Music (CCM) in Ohio and was the personal piano of Professor James Tocco in his teaching studio and not used by students. After he retired during the pandemic, the university decided to get rid of it as-is since they are a Steinway school and it doesn't really fit with what they're doing now. The acoustic instrument is in great shape for its age save for some minor cosmetic issues- the university did a good job maintaining it. The SE system however was non-functional and the university had given up on repairing it about 15 years ago. I was confident I could very likely repair it, so my wife and I decided to make an offer, thinking that at worst we'd have a fantastic acoustic piano even if the SE system was somehow unrepairable. Fortunately for us, our offer was accepted, and I have been successful in getting it back working how it should!

The quality of performance reproduction from these instruments is absolutely stunning! It accurately reproduces the softest of pianissimos and the loudest fortissimos (which are VERY loud in my home on a semi-concert grand, so I have to temper its dynamic range a touch in software sometimes).

I have barely scratched the surface of the music library, but some of the gems are the original SE recordings of the above-mentioned CDs, along with concert performances by many excellent pianists, some of them incredibly accomplished (Andras Schiff playing Schubert, for example).

Please ask additional questions if you'd like more detail.

sysadmindave What a great piano and what a great story! I love those Window in Time CDs. Congrats on having your own SE!

Wow! It's great that you have the electronics skills to resurrect the recording/reproducing capability. Color me impressed.

My last teacher, Peter Feuchtwanger, spoke about going to Bosendorfer during the period you mentioned, and doing some work with the engineers. One of the focus areas was on "rubato" and how it enlivened playing. Peter was a "bel canto" player, and for him, if one's playing didn't sing, well, it stunk, though he was too much the gentleman to say so. In the examples he played, he unconsciously demonstrated how the first note in a RH melody could precede or follow the sounding of the accompanying LH note. It was also demonstrated that even when chords were played with all notes together, depending on the shading of the voicing, they weren't EXACTLY played together which is what provided color and emphasis.

I hope you find this of interest, and Iook forward to hearing you play your piano soon.

Pallas It is on the gorgeous side. The veneer is bubinga from downed redwood tree roots. I'll take the front covers off and do some interior shots and add them to this.

sysadmindave In the photo background is our previous instrument that was in this space, a Yamaha C1.

congrats on your piano! as far as your C1, do you plan to keep it as well?

HeartKeys

Thanks! We haven't fully decided yet what to do with the C1, but we were thinking we may gift it to my daughter that lives in Kansas now with her own family. If they can't find room for it we may try to sell it locally.

It's an older Disklavier Mark IIXG that we've had for 22 years, and it's been a fine instrument. It has a great tone for a piano of its size (5'3"). My daughter learned to play on it, and my wife taught piano students with it for many years. It's still in good shape and plays very well, despite the obsolete Disklavier components. Hasn't been much desire to play it though with the 225 now in the house... The contrast between the tone quality of the 2 pianos is pretty extreme as you might imagine- the Boesendorfer 225 is a whole other level of instrument and makes any music sound beautiful.

I've been listening to the 'new' (but actually older) piano nearly constantly since I got the reproducing system running again- it sounds SO good!

Seeker
Thanks! It's been a really fun project that combines my love of music and engineering.

I agree that the work of the best pianists concentrates on expression and control of note timing to an extreme degree- to my ear that makes a big difference to the musicality of a performance. Interesting to hear that Bosendorfer R&D was looking for ways to assist pianists to get those qualities.

@Seeker and @sysadmindave thank you both for sharing the photos of your beautiful pianos! It’s fun to see them together actually, because I feel like they show the highest levels of the two kinds of piano beauty, a beautiful grand and beautiful upright.

Seeker The piece, your playing, and your piano all sound great. Thanks for your playing!

rogerch Thanks. It's a piece I never heard despite 55 hours on a DMA years back until I heard it in a Peter Feuchtwanger master class in Germany. ...glad to have the opportunity to share it here and anyplace people might forward it.

Seeker Please LMK what you think.

Wow, what a story! That is almost like finding an obscure masterpiece painting hidden in an attic somewhere! It's a beautiful piece and of course I don't need to comment on how it is played - anything except superlatives would be an insult Thanks for sharing Seeker!

sysadmindave

Heya, thanks so much for taking the time to tell your story. I'm honestly enthralled by this, and am equally in awe of your technical accomplishments as well as the beauty and rarity of such an instrument.

Wayne Stahnke's name comes up over and over again in the history of modern players, from Yamaha to Bosendorfer to Steinway. He's clearly the GOAT in the industry.

I remember seeing a comparison of several player systems, I believe it was Disklavier versus CEUS, noting strength/weaknesses such as millimeter-precision of keystrikes over long recording durations. Do you have any thoughts on how the SE, or other modern systems, fare in terms of reproduction? Are most systems "generally good enough where it's indistinguishable from the pianist sitting at the keys," or are there specifics where to your ears things are still noticeably imperfect? One of the things Frederic Chiu mentioned about the Disklavier Pro is that he thinks 256 levels of pedaling isn't quite enough (though that is definitely beyond the resolution of my own perception).

Fascinating topic and even moreso your story!

Gombessa
Thank you for asking and putting up with my wordy posts.

You're right, Wayne Stahnke is absolutely a renowned pioneer when it comes to modern player systems.

Local to me in the LA area is the Nethercutt Collection that houses what I believe is Wayne's first SE instrument made for a customer. The first Boesendorfer Wayne modified with his system in 1978 was done as a one-off commission from J.B. Nethercutt, the founder of Merle Norman cosmetics. It's a 290 Imperial, and sits next to the console of a Wurlitzer theatre organ that's built in to the music room at the museum. The museum itself is a fantastic place, FULL of super-high end classic cars and automated musical instruments- very well worth a visit if you're in the LA area.

As I understand it, when Wayne was engineering this system, he intended it to reproduce performances so exactly that the original pianist would accept it as their own authentic performance in every detail. He succeeded brilliantly at this and these instruments were and still are renowned for their accuracy of reproduction. Nearly all of the SE pianos made are still operating and in use in 2024. I only know of one 225 where the player system was removed and the piano sold without it after the owner's death. The Maestro foundation bought that player system separately to keep for spares.

When Wayne found out I was planning to purchase this piano, he very graciously reached out to me and generously offered his support to help me get it running again. I really appreciated that! Maestro has also been very supportive, so I thank them as well!

I think the paper you're referring to is the one that compared the reproduction of a 290SE with a Disklavier Mark IIXG. There is some interesting data in that paper, but I don't really agree with its overall conclusions on the SE- the authors seemed to have an ax to grind against player systems in general and were nitpicking tiny flaws that are absolutely inaudible- things like a several millisecond timing drift over the course of a playback.

As for player systems built since then, the Disklavier systems up until the Pro and current Enspire Pro systems were not able to accurately reproduce performances well enough to satisfy very critical listeners, but in general were reasonably good in their capabilities and succeeded in the marketplace. PianoDisc is in this same category.

CEUS and SE are generally considered to be about equivalent in reproduction, though there's some debate and no public data to support one or the other being better. The CEUS user interface is certainly much more modern though. I have heard from another SE owner that he believes the SE reproduction is superior to CEUS, but I don't have an opinion on it myself. I haven't heard enough of the CEUS systems to judge- they are also quite rare. The original Spirio sold by Steinway was the Wayne Stahnke LX playback-only system, though the newer Spirio R is distinct and its own design- Wayne wasn't involved with that. The LX system was based on a number of the SE design principles, but the goal was to be significantly lower cost and easier to install to address a different market segment.

Wayne was involved as a consultant in the development of Disklavier Pro.

The original SE system is still considered by many to be a high-water mark for reproducing piano accuracy. One thing that the SE and LX do in an interesting way is to calibrate the 'float' position of the damper pedal, where the dampers are raised to the point that the strings just start to ring but the pedal isn't completely depressed. That enables quite accurate half-pedaling reproduction even with just 256 levels of pedal- most of that range is lost either with the dampers on the strings or raised past the point of float, so I understand what Frederic Chiu was saying there. I don't know if Disklavier Pro systems calibrate the damper float point, but I suspect they don't.

The higher-end systems are all likely good enough these days to satisfy demanding listeners and artists. More ordinary systems (non-Pro Disklavier, PianoDisc, etc) have easily-audible limitations, but are still acceptable for nearly everyone. Not many will want a fully accurate concert fortissimo-level playback in their home, for example- a grand piano can get LOUD. Also, better accuracy is disproportionately expensive- chasing the last percentage points requires much more expensive components and more complex design. The high end reproducing systems are still quite costly and are likely to remain so.

There are definitely some technical limitations with the SE and other systems, but as an engineer I really appreciate the design philosophy that Wayne had of doing the very best that could be done with the technology of the time. In that way it appeals to me much as a classic car does, but he did such a good job that it remains competitive with the best even 37 years after my piano was built, and over 45 years from the original design. If engineered today many of the components could be much smaller and the software system could take advantage of today's computers (literally millions of times faster than the PC it came with), but otherwise there's not much to criticize. I'm working on the software angle!

Seeker
Very impressive playing and the resonant midrange tone of the Bechstein seems perfect for this music! This piece is also new to me, but you do it justice! Great sounding instrument!

Sophia I am sure you play fine Sophia, hopefully I will hear you play one day. Enjoy your music!