Moderation and Rules

rsl12 · 2024-05-24T17:50:21+00:00

A couple of people have brought up the topic of moderation. Perhaps Navindra already has ideas about rules, but I've started a new thread to discuss it. For...

rsl12

Two things that we did differently at reddit compared to pianoworld:

Because so many youtube musicians are trying to get views for their channels, we had a limit on how many times they could link their YouTube videos (one per week I think). And even then, we would expect those self promoters to limit their self-promotion to 50% of their total posts. So at least 50% of their posts would have to be engaging with other users (ideally not just responding to compliments to their self-promotion posts).
we were stricter with the "be nice to each other" rule. Criticism of a user performance was allowed only if the user asked for criticism, and personal attacks were never allowed.

twocats

I'd add "no self-promotion" too. We all know that person at PW who takes every opportunity to promote his pianos.

shawarma_bees

I do think some self-promotion is OK, as long as there is clear disclosure of the conflict of interest. I've appreciated reading perspectives from various dealers and technicians at PW and would want them to feel that their participation here is worth their time. Members associated with a piano-related business (dealers, technicians, etc) should be required to disclose this in their signature.

twocats

shawarma_bees there's praising the brands you carry (acceptable) and then there's overt selling. I'm thinking of a specific person who has had to have moderator action imposed many, many times and reaches out via PM to people to convince them to come to his store. I've received multiple messages from him, I've been polite about it before but I don't want that kind of thing here!

I think being active in discussions on a forum and showing expertise speaks for itself and generates business without needing to hard sell.

shawarma_bees

Yeah this makes sense and I agree.

rsl12

I know they're both probably pretty occupied right now, but I think feedback from @Gombessa and @BartK would be the best way to continue. If the goal is to make this site similar to PW, they would know best what the right balance for spam and civility is, among other topics. I'm sure they would have opinions about how to best write the rules.

BartK

rsl12 I know they're both probably pretty occupied right now, but I think feedback from @Gombessa and @BartK would be the best way to continue. If the goal is to make this site similar to PW, they would know best what the right balance for spam and civility is, among other topics. I'm sure they would have opinions about how to best write the rules.

Well, I think it's for @navindra to define the official rules and post them somewhere as as a terms of service and I would advise him to do that at least for legal reasons (if some member starts violating copyrights you might get into trouble). If you ask my opinion I think that the PW rules are good enough to work here.

What I think is not a good idea is to discuss moderation decisions publicly. By that I don't mean the rules, which should be clear for everyone, but the individual moderator decisions. Some people seem to think that mods are arbitrary dictators that ban people on a whim. Nothing could be further from the truth. On PW we always discussed every decision privately and made sure we communicated with the offenders and bans were always a last resort. Every situation was different. It required thought and had to be handled with care. Sometimes a public post to calm down the athmosphere was the best way to get a topic back on track and sometimes there needed to be more stern private warnings. But in every case the moderator decisions and actions were unanimous.

However, I think it's a bad idea to have a "trial by public" kind of moderation where the majority decides that they don't like such and such and would like them banned. I know some people came here specifically to avoid certain particularly unfriendly users on PW but please keep in mind that if you want this to remain an open forum then you have to accept different personalities and give everyone a fair chance. The mods should look into every report and arbitrate as objectively as they can as a team.

But ultimately, it's up to navindra to decide. It's his forum.

PianoMonk

This is also from PW...

Behavior on the Forum

Although we lively discussions and strong opinions are welcome, here are some guidelines:
Don't hijack threads. If you read something in a thread that makes you want to explore a different tangent, start another thread.

Stay on topic. Piano World is the place to discuss pianos, pianists, piano playing, piano music, ... - All Things Piano! The occasional off topic thread gives the forum a bit of spice but please conform to the following:
Mark your thread as off topic e.g., OT - what's the best device for listening to music
Do not start off topic threads on topics that are potentially controversial or inflammatory. Examples include: politics, religion, etc.
Be aware that forum moderators may choose to limit the number of off topic threads in a particular forum.

Repeatedly hijacking threads either to start a new topic or carry on a "side" (but public) conversation is not permitted and will result in a warning and possible suspension of access to the forum.

Discuss what has been said, not the person who said it. Feel free to disagree, even strongly, with something someone has said but note that they're as entitled to their opinion as you are and just because they don't share your opinion doesn't mean they're wrong or deserving of abuse.

If you feel someone is attacking you or a fellow forum member, resist the urge to wade in and do battle. Use the Notify button. It's the icon labeled "Notify" at the bottom of each post. This will give you the opportunity to say how you think the post is "out of bounds" and will send a notice to forum administrators. Note that if you choose to ignore this and respond on the forum, your posts and subsequent responses may be deleted. Repeated infractions will draw a warning and possible ban.
If you feel someone is using the forum improperly e.g., to post spam, advertising, etc., use the Notify button to report it.

rsl12

PianoMonk This is also from PW...

Behavior on the Forum

Thanks PianoMonk. I had to search keywords to find where this document was on the website. Here it is, for reference. It's funny that you said the rules I quoted were at the bottom of these guidelines, because there is a link to your quoted guidelines at the bottom of the rules I quoted!

Sgisela My impression is also that there was a chunk of time on PW when a lot of the significant moderation calls had to do with whether industry professionals were doing too much self-promoting. But as the industry professional participation declined, this became less of an issue.

Yes, spam and self-promotion were the biggest headaches at Reddit too.

candela This is something I personally would rather not include:

"You may not:
– – –
Use the Web Site to advertise or solicit to anyone ... to visit another competing Web Site"

Yes, we should definitely not include that rule! A lot of the VS rules seem designed to protect company interests.

twocats

BartK thank you for explaining how much thought (and time and effort) goes into moderation decisions.

Rubens

BartK However, I think it's a bad idea to have a "trial by public" kind of moderation where the majority decides that they don't like such and such and would like them banned. I know some people came here specifically to avoid certain particularly unfriendly users on PW but please keep in mind that if you want this to remain an open forum then you have to accept different personalities and give everyone a fair chance.

I don't know, BartK. I'm afraid there are outlier cases where it is just blatant that a member is consistently ruining the atmosphere of the forum with their toxic behavior, without clearly breaking any rule. You know who I'm talking about. Aren't there cases where it's clear as day that the forum would be a better place without a particular member, even if they don't technically break the rules. Or maybe there can be a rule here that was not on PW to prevent this kind of disruptive behavior? I'm just thinking "out loud" here.

navindra

BartK I'm aligned with the substance of what you wrote. 🙂

twocats

Rubens at least the ignore function should work better on this forum!

rsl12

Thanks BartK for providing your insight. My experience moderating was similar to yours--careful thought and discussion among the moderators about how to handle difficult people that liked to bend the rules.

Everyone's taste is different, but I personally like quick response and strictness with abusive posts. I feel like it's not unreasonable to remove a post that contains even a little personal attack. It's not too much of a burden for the user to rewrite their post in a nicer way. And if moderation is done quickly, it can stop a chain of angry retorts.

The PW rules regarding civility are a little hard to interpret, which might lead to slow decisions as moderators are unsure if a rule applies or not. The PW rule is that users cannot post:

...harmful, threatening, abusive, libelous, flaming, hateful, offensive (whether in relation to sex, race, religion or otherwise), defamatory, obscene, vulgar, harassing, pornographic, profane or indecent information of any kind....

The words "abuse" and "offensive" are extremely subjective. I personally prefer the Reddit version:

Comments that contain personal attacks, hate speech, trolling, unnecessarily derogatory or inflammatory remarks or inappropriate remarks (e.g. commenting on someone's appearance), and the like, are not welcome and will be removed.

Most of the problem posts (at least at Reddit) fell under the category of "personal attacks", and most moderators there could agree which comments were personal attacks and which were not.

In any case, I agree with you that Navindra is the one who has to make the decisions about what kind of rules he would like for his site.

Sgisela

rsl12 I never scrolled down that far on the Rules page to see the 2022 updates! Rather, I continued to refer primarily to the rules that had been in place for many years and which @PianoMonk referenced already. My impression is also that there was a chunk of time on PW when a lot of the significant moderation calls had to do with whether industry professionals were doing too much self-promoting. But as the industry professional participation declined, this became less of an issue.

In any case, I know that @Rubens and perhaps others have referenced certain member(s) whose participation caused friction with many. My sense is that it is somewhat inevitable that as a community grows, there will be people who don’t get along or who rub a lot of others the wrong way. Sometimes, these people can have a lot to contribute, but they can also have complicated personalities, and I’m sure it is very challenging to effectively manage the situations. I don’t pretend to have answers, but I do feel that establishing and promoting a culture of civility and respect will be important to maintaining a good environment here.

candela

rsl12 Use the Web Site to advertise or solicit to anyone to buy or sell products or services, to cease using the Web Site, to visit another competing Web Site,

This is something I personally would rather not include:

"You may not:
– – –
Use the Web Site to advertise or solicit to anyone ... to visit another competing Web Site"

Is there even such a thing as "competing" web sites or do we want to coexist peacefully and be able to share relevant information available elsewhere freely? Couldn't this be the very reason why PW banned Gombessa accusing him of conflict of interest, a call that many of the users here strongly disagree with?

rsl12

Josephine I was curious about your situation so I looked at your history and I figured out who you were talking about. Based on the public messages, it seems more like a problem of personality differences (but I can't be sure since I only saw a few of your interactions). I can't think of a forum rule that would solve the problem. In general it seems you enjoy feedback from people, but his feedback annoys you in a way others doesn't, and it's not because he's being abusive or trying to be hurtful, but because (I think) he forgets to consider other people's emotions and can often miss the point of what people are trying to say. Also, he tends to see a doctor/patient relationship between himself and beginner players--he thinks his advice is like medicine, and his medicine is good for you even if it tastes bad.

If he shows up, maybe the better solution is to make sure the "ignore user" features here work really well, both on public and private messages. If you are worried about indirectly seeing comments of his quoted, then you could tell him that you are ignoring him and that he should not leave any comments on your posts. (If he did, a moderator could take action, since that would be harassment.)

twocats

Josephine I still don't know how to edit my posts.

Right under your post on the right side there are 3 vertical dots. Click and there is an Edit option.

But I really hope you don't leave if that person shows up. Hopefully the ignore feature will help to erase them from your existence 🙂

And I'm hoping the moderation here takes a harder line on if someone repeatedly needs their posts removed for bad behavior, to consider a ban.

candela

Josephine You're not paranoid. I do not have to check your PW history to feel pretty certain whom you're talking about.

Josephine I still don't know how to edit my posts.

Click the three dots that show up when you hover in the lower right area below the post. For your own posts there should be an "edit" option there.

rsl12

Josephine, is there a forum rule that you would like added? A rule that could prevent the behavior that's upsetting you?

Josephine It's all fine. If he [does] show up here I leave. And that's fine.

Nobody wants that. I hope we can come up with a solution.