Neuroscience-based efficient practice schedule

twocats · 2024-05-15T16:46:46+00:00

I had meant to share this on PW a long time ago but never got around to it! My friend shared these videos by Dr. Molly Gebrian, a neuroscientist who is also...

Animisha

When checking out some of the science that Molly refered to, I happened to find this article: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00464-023-10522-y.
The title says it clearly: No difference between using short and long intervals for distributed proficiency-based laparoscopy simulator training.

The article makes it clear, as Molly also says, that it is not important exactly how many days you take a break from a section, and that it is good to experiment and find out for yourself which schedule works best for you.

ranjit

Animisha I'm a bit confused by what this means? If 1-2 day intervals are not worse than 6-8 day intervals, wouldn't the total number of days still be less if you had 1-2 day intervals?

For example, if you practice 3 hours:
1 hour on day 1
1 hour on day 2
1 hour on day 3

vs the same 3 hours:
1 hour on day 1
1 hour on day 8
1 hour on day 15

Isn't the study saying they observed the same performance from both groups?

Animisha

ranjit

Yes, this seems to be the case in this study. Shorter intervals were not more efficient than longer intervals. On the other hand, longer intervals were also not more efficient than shorter intervals.

JB_PT

Pallas I just finished reading the book, and it's 3 hours until my lesson. I looked at the workbook, and I'm finding it daunting, especially interleaved practice and bringing a fast piece up to speed.

My typical routine for books like these is to read all the way through once, then I go back for a second (quicker) pass and start marking pages/taking notes. I'm not planning to buy the workbook, but I just finished my first read-through of the book a few days ago and I'm also finding it a bit daunting! There's so many things I recognize I want to/should work on; it's a long list all jumbled in my head and I'm not sure where I should start. But that's what the next step is for...I can start writing things down and then hopefully it will be easier to prioritize what I want to focus on.

Pallas Hilariously, my original method is bullet pointed in MG's workbook, on Worksheet 2 as "the common unhelpful habits," circle the ones that apply. There are 11. I did all 11 every day.

I may resemble that remark. 😩

If anyone is curious about these topics and on the fence about buying the book, my recommendation would be to start with her videos on YouTube. They are pretty concise and much of the material in the book is presented there. I thought all of the studies she shared were really interesting, but I found them easier to digest when she was explaining...it's a bit dry to just read about them. I am very glad I did buy the book though - I'm really interested in trying out most of her suggestions and for me personally it's just better to have a physical copy on hand. I have a lot of saved YT videos with plans to follow up but then I just forget about them.

keystring

JB_PT My typical routine for books like these is to read all the way through once, then I go back for a second (quicker) pass and start marking pages/taking notes.

Just wanted to say that I can identify with this approach. It feels akin to flying over the terrain to get an idea of rivers, roads, cottages and hills. Then you go down to the ground, dig into the dirt and know how your spot relates to everything else. I need context and do very poorly without a big picture.

Animisha

Day 5! First day with section 2, which was exactly the right size for 3 x 10 minutes of practice today. This made me realise that section 1 is too big (too difficult).
My idea of dividing the piece into nine sections of 4-5 measures, before I started practising them, was not such a good idea. As Molly wrote in her comments below the video, the length of the sections should depend on what I can reasonably work with during 30 minutes.
I have now split section 1 into 1A and 1B, and from now on, they will get 3 x 10 minutes of practice each for as long as they need that amount of time.

Working with the schedule is quite a lot of trial and error at this stage! 😅

lilypad

Thought I'd share my schedule that I made with Google Sheets.

Practice Planner Demo

"Stompin' at the Savoy" is a piece I just started and is closest to the schedule from the video. The rest are close to finished so their schedules are more compressed. I'm either putting sections together ("Sound of Silence", "Beyond the Sea") or bringing up to tempo ("Ecossaise") or doing interleaved performance practice ("Manhattan 1928") for the upcoming recital. I'll be doing interleaved performance practice for "Beyond the Sea" later on also for a piano club meeting near the end of the month.

Animisha

Very interesting lilypad, to see how you have managed to make a schedule for several pieces.

Pallas

My very first COVID happened right after my last lesson this past Saturday, so I'm in the midst of an impromptu 1-week break on all pieces because it has hit me quite hard. I did try sitting down and playing through my current pieces last night and ... they seem to range from "that's pretty much right where I left it" to "actually quite a lot better."

I'm still not sure I have the focus necessary to remember to push the correct buttons during my practice, so I would not consider my anecdotes to be actual helpful data, but I've made improvement on my pieces with less fatigue and frustration, and I'm enjoying practice more, so I'm very happy with that.

Animisha

Get well soon Pallas!

And how nice to see such an improvement! Congratulations. 😊

Animisha

Day ten.

The journalling is a hassle! But I eventually I won't be doing it in such detail as I do right now. As long as I don't spend more than ten minutes on a section, it doesn't matter if I spend three, seven and a half, or nine minutes.

I have a question. When I start with section 9, I will already have played section 1 nine times. Now section 9 is (hopefully) the most difficult one, and section 1 is the easiest one, but still, that is quite a difference. How will I get this schedule together and still give section 9 enough days with a break?
How do you all solve this?

twocats

Animisha How will I get this schedule together and still give section 9 enough days with a break?
How do you all solve this?

I think it's too late now but next time you do this, work on the most difficult sections first!

I'm already off from my "strict" schedule 😂 My 1-day break turned into a 4-day break, partly because I decided to participate in the recital at the last minute and partly because I needed time off piano and life got a bit away from me. Hoping to at least do a strict three alternate days for the next grouping!

Animisha

twocats I think it's too late now but next time you do this, work on the most difficult sections first!

Hi twocats!

It is not too late, because I already did that. 😊

Still, on day 6, section 1 still gives me more trouble than section 2 gives me on day 3...
Part of my solution is to spend the full ten minutes each time I play section 1 and only three minutes each time I play section 2.

In retrospect, section 2 was not at all as difficult as I thought it would be! I should have made this section the final section instead, but I did not know.

twocats

Animisha I'm not sure if I have any answers for you, but perhaps section 1 needs more than 10 minutes?

Animisha

twocats perhaps section 1 needs more than 10 minutes?

Molly says the length of the sections is what she can reasonably work in during one practice session of 30 minutes. But not 30 minutes in one go - therefore I play section 1 three times ten minutes on the days that it is scheduled, and section 2 three times three minutes.

In retrospect, section 1 should have been a bit shorter though. Still, it is good that it is the first section that I started to practise and not the ninth... 😅

twocats

Animisha Molly says the length of the sections is what she can reasonably work in during one practice session of 30 minutes. But not 30 minutes in one go - therefore I play section 1 three times ten minutes on the days that it is scheduled, and section 2 three times three minutes.

I am definitely doing that part all wrong! My "section" is the entire movement which is like 10 minutes at performance tempo, much slower at my current tempo. If I broke it down more I don't think I would have time for it. I'm just hoping to see good progress after the first "series" and then go from there.

Animisha

twocats I am definitely doing that part all wrong!

She also says that you should experiment to find out what works best for you. 😊

candela

I've been doing spaced and interleaved practice on and off for quite some time on other instruments, long before I began learning piano three years ago. I find the book-keeping / logistics to be a major hurdle and my main reason for the "off"-periods.

There used to be an Android app called PianoPracticeAssistant which despite being far from perfect has been the best I've found this far. Unfortunately it's not been available for several years and I have not been able to use it since my previous phone broke down in 2021 or so. While I no longer recall all the details of the app, one of its stand-out features was that you had to evaluate and input your "mastery" of a section after each practice instance and the app would use that info to calculate when to come back to that section the next time. In other words there was no strict preset schedule. Does anybody know if there is some similar app available nowadays?

Molly said in a video that she's come to only schedule the very next time for practicing something in her calendar, not drawing out a complete schedule from the get-go. As I see it, a main benefit of this approach is to be able to deviate from the strict schedule based on how easy it was or how well you played, and also if/when to combine small sections into larger ones. Obviously it takes time and experience to get good at such estimates.

For randomised interleaved practice within a single practice session I peruse items from the board-game shelf: usually drawing differently coloured pawns from a bag (with matching marks in the sheet music) and having some score-board to keep track of how many times in a row I play something up to standard and how many times I've returned to each part. That works well enough, but the larger timeframes are cumbersome to keep track of. (Especially when trying to keep up a practice regimen on multiple instruments.) I'm still trying to find a good and low-maintenance system for that. Any suggestions welcome!

keystring

I asked a question, a number of people answered, and I disappeared. The answers all now say "11 days ago". My belated thanks. Essentially I was asking about this idea of "many hours / lots of repetitions".

@Ithaca wrote "KS, as a child I wasn't told to do "lots of repetitions", but my teachers told me to practice at least an hour/day once I turned 8. .... During that time my 2nd teacher gave me brief instructions on what to practice, but not very much about how, since it was clear I wasn't putting in the time. Once I started playing regularly most days, she started giving me her thoughts on how to practice; e.g., what order to do things in, number of repetitions (but not very many, IIRC), etc."

@twocats wrote "I don't think the 2.5 hour expectation was from my teacher but from my dad; we were in Canada but had a strict and scary Russian teacher. I don't remember if she had suggested a certain number of hours of practice,....
But I do remember long hours and lots of repetition was the expectation. No one has ever told me to do small segments and to break it up."

What I'm getting in general is that stated or implied, an expectation of longer hours were understood, but not much by way of what do do during those long hours.

In my first-ever lessons which were on violin, I was told that good students tended to practise daily from 1-3 hours, but the "how" of that practice likewise was never taught. I started questioning that aspect of it several years in when things both hit a ceiling and also had gone backward.

Ithaca, the observation by the specialist about the conservatory students was both interesting and disturbing.

@ranjit - You were told to try 6 hours for the level you are trying to reach, but also the "high level of focus" part. The "high level of focus" brings us right back to "how to practise" - how do we spend the time we're at the piano (or away from it if mental practice is included), and how do we divide up our time.

That is my poor summary. I hope I haven't left anyone out. I thank everyone for your input to my question.

ranjit

keystring You were told to try 6 hours for the level you are trying to reach, but also the "high level of focus" part. The "high level of focus" brings us right back to "how to practise" - how do we spend the time we're at the piano (or away from it if mental practice is included), and how do we divide up our time.

I was saying yes to both hours and repetitions. My teacher said that you might have to repeat something hundreds of times before you "have it". He also advocated having a goal and sitting down for an hour or two until a certain passage is mastered, by which point you might have gone over it several dozen times.

These are not mindless repetitions. It is a lot of breaking down into small parts, working on one or two measures at a time, figuring out the technique (as well as expression) you would use. But it can still amount to hundreds of repetitions.

keystring

twocats 'm guessing Dr. Molly can sightread most of her stuff at performance level and only needs to do spaced practice for the trickier bits...

I had a broader thought that goes in this direction. Namely what she suggests must be personalized to where you are at yourself. Her own practising will be as a trained professional who has all the skills and is aiming at the piece(s) to be performed. If teaching at university level, the students probably have good foundations already. We may not be in that kind of position. You may be a beginner still learning basic things; or someone who learned on their own or was mistaught with problems to unravel. The goal may be to acquire skills, as well as learn to play a piece of music.

I looked at the Appendix A that is on-line which was linked. Mostly these are familiar things. I'm looking at chapter 1:

- Start with hard spots

figure out why you are having trouble as precisely as you can

Break the problem down into smaller, manageable parts.

Solidify the solution using one of the methods below:

Play it correctly at least fives times in a row.

Overlearning: If it took you 10 tries to get it right, to at least 5 correct repetitions......

Ask: "Which pathway am I reinforcing by how I'm practising?"
...........

Here's how that looked for me a couple of years ago. As a child I was self-taught and created habits. I have not worked with an in-person teacher, and my foot was not on-camera. My previous piano (DP) had a questionable pedal: you had to stomp all the way down for it to engage, and let it release almost to the top for it to disengage.

This created a host of habits that remained with a new, good piano, because I didn't know better. I put my body weight into the pedal foot, shifted something in the hips, and had no sensitivity to the pedal's response. I went to play a piece that needed pedal more than once per measure and I was in trouble. Fixing this was multistep. Being so uncoordinated, I started with Feldenkrais stand-sit from a chair in the room for balance: how to move the foot from the ankle. (2) Getting familiar with the pedal, at what point of descent does it engage - at what point does it disengage the sound. (3) Play two notes in a row legato using the pedal, with a minimum range of moving the pedal. There was no "at least 5 times in a row" - after 2, the old habit kicked in - until this solidified. There was "multiple sessions throughout the day" however.

I abandoned the piece during that period, and went back to it after the new habit was established. Everything I described goes within what Dr. G listed, but adjusted to where I was at personally.

As an idea of personalization of the ideas to where you're at.

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