More pianomakers experimenting with narrower keyboards

Gombessa

Saw this a few days ago, to my great joy:

And I know Steingraeber also demo'd a narrow-key action:

As has Hailun:
https://www.hailun-pianos.com/my-size-keys

And I'm sure some others as well. I hope we see continued development and adoption on this front, the "one size fits all" mentality with piano really boggles my mind.

ShiroKuro

Gombessa I once spent a fair amount of timing reading on the website ... I think it was called something like "pianists for alternatively sized keyboards"? Anyway, reading that, I decided that I would love to have a slightly small-sized piano at home. But I love the action/feel of my current piano so much, I would really worry about swapping it out (to say nothing of the expense!)

MRC

If you've got the room, and the cash, you can swap between two keyboards in a grand piano: the swap is easy and only takes a few minutes.

ShiroKuro

MRC f you've got the room, and the cash, you can swap between two keyboards in a grand piano

I don't have a convenient spot for an extra keyboard on the same floor as the piano, and I can't imagine dragging a keyboard up from the basement every time I wanted to swap them out. Plus, my husband probably wouldn't be happy with the suggestion of spending even more money on music stuff! 😅

Speaking of which, do you have an idea of how much an alternatively sized keyboard costs?

the swap is easy and only takes a few minutes.

How heavy are they? Separate from the weight, they're long and awkward. I bet I would not perceive it as easy! 😃

Gombessa

ShiroKuro Check out the Steingraeber video above - they built a crate/rig that makes it easy to slide out the old action, spin the whole thing around, and slide in the new action, without ever having to lift it (it's heavy!).

As to cost, it's about $17k for a complete replacement action (so you can swap at will) on a grand, and $10k for a "half action keybed" where your tech mounts your existing hammers and whippens to the narrower keybed. Sadly, it's not cheap. Which is why I think piano manufacturers providing OEM solutions is really the best outcome.

iternabe

Gombessa As to cost, it's about $17k for a complete replacement action (so you can swap at will) on a grand, and $10k for a "half action keybed" where your tech mounts your existing hammers and whippens to the narrower keybed. Sadly, it's not cheap. Which is why I think piano manufacturers providing OEM solutions is really the best outcome.

David Steinbuhler offer similar service in the US, for about the same cost: https://dsstandardfoundation.org/products/

Also this picture from the website explains the principle of the design which is quite straightforward. Basically it's just remaking the key sticks to have sharper bends so that collectively they are narrower at the player end but remain the same width and spacing at the whippen end. Everything from whippen and above (hammer, etc) remain unchanged.

ShiroKuro

Gombessa Check out the Steingraeber video above - they built a crate/rig that makes it easy to slide out the old action, spin the whole thing around, and slide in the new action, without ever having to lift it (it's heavy!).

I will watch that later, but I would guess that my piano doesn't have room for a crate/rig.

As to cost, it's about $17k for a complete replacement action (so you can swap at will) on a grand, and $10k for a "half action keybed" where your tech mounts your existing hammers and whippens to the narrower keybed.

Ok, that's way too expensive! 😅

Also, am I right in thinking that the half action is more of a commitment? IOW it's not something you easily swap out like the full action, right?

Maybe that was the kind I originally read about

ShiroKuro

iternabe Also this picture from the website explains the principle of the design which is quite straightforward. Basically it's just remaking the key sticks to have sharper bends so that collectively they are narrower at the player end but remain the same width and spacing at the whippen end. Everything from whippen and above (hammer, etc) remain unchanged.

This is so interesting.... It makes me wonder if this would make the action in my piano feel different, or not...

Gombessa

Oof, my post was really unclear. I don't know how much Steingraeber charges (I recall there was one person on PW who purchased a 9' Steingraeber that came with a crated second (non-narrow) action, which is wild in itself.

The pricing I was talking about was in fact the Steinbuhler DS Foundation action. Wayyy too many Steins in the piano world.

Gombessa

ShiroKuro Yeah, from the DS Foundation site, it seems the 10k option is just the keybed with the keysticks. Your tech can "easily" move the top stack of your existing action - the action brackets, hammers, whippens, etc. onto the narrow keybed and secure it, and slide it back into the piano. You'd still need to store the original keybed (minus top action stack) somewhere, so uncertain how much space it actually saves. So my understanding is i's reversible with the help of a tech, but not swap-in, swap-out. Still, $10k is WAY cheaper than $17k.

iternabe

ShiroKuro This is so interesting.... It makes me wonder if this would make the action in my piano feel different, or not...

The text in that picture described several very important points to ensure the replacement narrow action feels just like the original. For example, the imaginary line connecting capstan and touch point must pass through the balance pin for that key stick. It’s a principle in old piano design books. It sounds simple, but is actually quite tricky to achieve. I found this out only because I tried to make a rough 3D model of the piano action. That Steinbuhler heeds this design principle indicated really careful design. He said he wrote a computer program to draw the diagrams for the CNC machine to cut the key sticks. The other points like balancing the weights, bracing the bass keys to heavier hammer, are all signs of good engineering.

David Steinbuhler’s story is quite remarkable. He is not a pianist, nor is he a piano technician. But he is a great engineer with passion, and happens to have all the tools and skills from his family business. Here is a fascinating interview of him.

ShiroKuro

iternabe so much goes into a piano action and all of it impacts the experience the pianist has at the keyboard, so I have a hard time believing that making this change would not be noticeable or feel-able.

I still haven’t been able to watch the videos yet, though, perhaps that will convince me. 🙂

Gombessa

I agree that there's little chance anyone can guarantee "no change in feel" in something as delicately tuned and scrutinized as a piano action. Heck, Steinway/Yamaha and others have no way of guaranteeing the exact same feel between identical actions produced for identical pianos.

But I think the DS keyboard goes to great lengths to ensure that whatever the changes to feel that may encountered due to massive re-engineering of the keybed aren't major, and more importantly, account for any differences introduced by longer/offset keysticks. There's an account that an early prototype of the 5.5 keyboard was rejected by techs because the bass keys were too flexy/springy, which led them to introduce the bass "bracing" below the lowest keys to eliminate the flex causing that.

So without having ever tried the keyboard, I would put money on two notions:

It probably won't feel identical. But it will feel like a quality action suitable for play (practice, performance) and can be regulated/adjusted by a tech to fine-tune.
For pianists who seek it, the extent it changes the feel of an action is probably vastly overshadowed by the primary benefit of being able to play on narrow keys.

I wouldn't be too surprised if there are small-handed pianists who try a DS keyboard and determine the feel is too different for them or the compromises too great to bother adopting it. But for each of them, I'm hoping there is someone else who feels the joy and relief of being able to play the instrument they love in a more natural, less-strained and less-painful way. And having that choice available is really the best outcome.

ShiroKuro

Gombessa Great comments! I still hope to someday have the chance to play one.

Gombessa I wouldn't be too surprised if there are small-handed pianists who try a DS keyboard and determine the feel is too different for them or the compromises too great to bother adopting it. But for each of them, I'm hoping there is someone else who feels the joy and relief of being able to play the instrument they love in a more natural, less-strained and less-painful way.

I've read accounts from people who say they have no problem switching back and forth between a 6.0 and a 6.5 keyboard, and I've read others that say the switch was close to impossible for them. So like anything, there's some degree of individual difference.

And having that choice available is really the best outcome.

This, 100%!!

I have tenosynovitis in both of my wrists. It's primarily aggravated by things I do for work (typing, grading, analytic coding), rather than piano. But there are times when I can feel that a piano piece is just "big" enough that playing it would be too much strain. I generally choose not to play those pieces, but if I had a slightly narrow keyboard, I bet I wouldn't have to make that choice.

thepianoplayer416

Besides acoustic pianos with narrow keys, there is the Athena keyboard with a high quality sound and narrow keys for people with limited space for a piano. A digital keyboard tends to sacrifice sound that comes out of speakers in a directional way for the portability. At the same time a keyboard comes in a small package that is easy to ship across the country.

WieWaldi

thepianoplayer416 Thanks for sharing this one.

I think an affordable (and compact) digital is cruical to bring pianists into this world. Spending $10000 and up to modify an acoustic, and then the acoustic is only a narrow type, this is quite an investment. If one wants to figure out if a narrow keyboard is something to switch to in the long run, this investment is too big, IMO.

But if one buys a narrow digital as a 2nd instrument and has to possibility to go back and forth between both instruments and try them out on different pieces, the final decision will be more profound. This would maybe drive more pianists to want a narrow keyboard, and this could drive the big companies to make narrow keyboard pianos at competitive prices for the mass market.

Btw: There was another standard, the 6 inch octave keyboard as a inbetween solution of the regular 6.5 inch and the narrow 5.5 inch keyboard. This would maybe the right size for me, as a 10th is a real stretch, but on the other hand I have some thick fingers that have problems playing the white keys between the black one.
Still I hope, the 6 inch version will never get any market acceptance, 2 sizes and hopefully 2 standards are enough for this world. Anyway, the 5.5 inch keyboard is established already: you find it at toy keyboards, compact midi controllers and you find it on accordions. All accordions - from beginner to professional.

CrisOliveira

Does anyone have any idea on the rationale behind the current keyboard size standard? Usually the trend across time is to make instruments more accessible. Piano makers made it harder before starting to think about making it easier. I mean, today's actions are lighter, which makes it easier to play. It's a contradictory situation: actions became lighter, but regarding keyboard size, makers settled for wider, harder. Until now.

Some players say bigger hands give you a harder time playing between the black keys. Maybe the best pianists had long fingers and makers favored making their lives easier. I've read the current standard was set around Rachmaninoff's time. If I was born in Chopin's day, I'd probably have no problem playing all the Marche Funèbre's chords.

MRC

CrisOliveira I've read the current standard was set around Rachmaninoff's time.

First of all, there is no actual international standard. It's just a consensus, but there is remarkably little difference between different brands of piano.

Secondly, there's a false idea that pianos in the 19th century had narrower keys than those built now. In fact, there's little difference; it's just that in the 19th century there was a bit more variation in size. The variations were not very marked, but you can find older 19th century pianos not only with slightly narrower keys than modern ones, but also with wider keys. For instance, the Érard that Liszt had in 1876:

I've played on many historical instruments, not only pianos but also harpsichords and organs. In most cases, differences in the width of the keys compared to modern ones were not noticeable (in contrast to the significant differences in key length and key dip). I recently played on a Streicher from 1860. The octave span was 166mm, near identical to that of most modern pianos.

CrisOliveira

MRC
One more myth put to the ground.

KevinM
My current digital piano's keyboard is slightly narrower than my previous one. For some reason, the previous one was the one which used to give me a hard time pressing between the black keys. Probably because that action was not so great. Now it's easier for me to press keys closer to the pivot.

KevinM

I think my biggest worry with narrower keyboards is playing the white notes between the black keys. It happens only rarely but does happen that I can partially press a black key when playing between the black keys. I don't have wide fingers so this doesn't feel like just a me specific issue.

With a narrower keyboard I can see that it would become more likely that those partial presses become actual presses that generate a sound.

But that could just be the finger is reaching in from the side a bit and with a narrower keyboard it might be that the finger is less angled and is playing the note more straight on.

Now I've just talked myself into thinking this is something you can only try and see if it helps a specific person and they can't know until spending time with it.

Gombessa

KevinM IIRC, there is actually a bit more variation in the width and position of the black keys, even today. Some pianos have narrower black keys, and some wider ones, and different pianos space out their black keys differently even accounting for width.If you look very closely, you'll notice that black keys aren't uniformly spaced between white keys. A C# isn't positioned next to its C natural in the same way the D/D#, F/F#, G/G# or A/A# pairs are, they're all different.

So even with a narrower total keyboard, it's possible that "fat fingers between ebonies" can be mitigated by the profile and/or positioning of those keys.