Vidal piano controller

KevinM

I am way too tempted by the vidal piano controller. There are big cons, but I'm a sucker.

High price
No one to repair it in the UK
No way to actually test before buying

I'd love to have an acoustic piano, but I just can't see it happening.

The vidal piano controller is hand crafted and hand built.
It looks like a beautiful piece of furniture and could really help provide that piano room vibe.
It gives every impression the guys have done the homework/research/experimentation to make a quality virtual piano controller action.

I know my emotional gut reaction is not sensible. But I keep thinking about it.

I have been looking at getting some custom built furniture to contain my MP11SE and to get something that looks good and that is also expensive. Not so much as the Vidal controller of course. But my current setup is ugly as can be and I want it to be nice. I also find the design of the Kawai Novus and the Yamaha equivalents to be ugly.

But even if I got the vidal controller, I'd still need some kind of cabinet for the computer/speakers and possible mixer. (I currently use a small yamaha mixer).

https://playvidal.com/products/vidal

navindra

KevinM That looks very nice indeed!

The only thing I'd worry about is con #3 but I have bought plenty of instruments without trying them first and most of the time it has worked out... though generally everything was made by well-known brand companies.

Where are they based, would they ship this to the UK?

Btw, I think you could easily afford an upright piano in this price range. What makes the acoustic piano impractical for you? I guess you would surely miss all the VIs you've grown accustomed to?

navindra

KevinM Reading more about the Vidal Piano Controller, the underlying tech doesn't seem to stray much from normal digital pianos. It looks nice for sure.

Have you considered something like this?:
https://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/products/kawai-dg30-polished-ebony-digital-grand-piano

or this:
https://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/products/roland-gp9-digital-grand-piano-polished-ebony -- it has a PHA50 action which I've heard is top-notch.

I'm sure you could hop over to the shop and plug in your VI to try them out. I mean with just some random browsing around, I feel like you could do better than the VPC on the local UK market.

I also saw the VPC is made in Philadelphia. That's going to be a heck of an ordeal to get that shipped to the UK. It's massive and bulky, so damage is a real possibility.

Jazzpunk

KevinM There's a thread with a few Vidal owners over on VI Control:

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/vidal-boutique-controller-keyboards.140871/

The Vidal looks nice but unfortunately way out of my price range.

KevinM

Thanks for the reality check Navindra.

For some reason I don’t like the black boxes of many of the digital pianos.

I think I am just going to have to get a bespoke wooden piece made for my MP11SE.

Unfortunately any acoustic isn’t going to work. My partner has a chronic illness and needs to sleep and rest many hours of the day. An acoustic piano just can’t be audibly isolated enough in our house.

keff

KevinM I think I am just going to have to get a bespoke wooden piece made for my MP11SE.

Cabinet making has been one of my lifetime hobbies and this appears to be a good idea. There is a picture of the Vidal controller cover being placed over the keys in their website and something like that should be adaptable to your MP11SE and should not be too difficult to construct.

navindra

KevinM Makes sense, you're definitely doing the right thing and your partner is very lucky to have someone as supportive as you!

Some of those pianos come in white too. Are you mainly looking for something that has more of a wood-finish like the VPC? Given that you're considering all this, it may still be worthwhile to shop around and see all the options available to you in the digital world.

Another option to consider is a piano shell. There are several companies that make them in upright and grand form factors. You can choose different color options.

Examples:

https://www.keyholeshells.com/
https://thepianoshellcompany.com/
https://www.centerstaging.com/piano-shells/

KevinM

I think it is more of a shell I'm considering. I'm not going to replace the current case of my MP11SE with a wooden one. There is too much detail with the controls along the top for that to be possible.

I was already thinking about getting something custom made to fit around my keyboard with a way to easily reveal the controls, to provide somewhere for my computer and mixer to hide but still be easily accessible. I still need to think about where the keyboard and screen go for the computer.

But then I saw the Vidal controller. It just looked like a piece of furniture I would be happy to have in my piano room. My piano room was my working from home room (I'd been working from home for a long long time) but I retired at the end of October and I want to change this room from its spartan functional space to be my comfortable piano room.

The wood finish of the controller is lush and I would be happy for that look from a bespoke cabinet for my MP11SE.

I keep looking at the various UK websites for digital pianos but I never see anything that provides the look that makes me happy.

Having a good action is important, and I'm happy enough with my MP11SE so if I was going to upgrade I think it would need to be something like the NV12 but I just think it is ugly. Otherwise I'd consider getting it even though most of the time I would be using headphones. The money at this point is not the issue. It is about having a piano and a room that works for me.

Seeker

FWIW - reading through the (presumably curated) comments about the Vidal on their website, they make the case that they have something that really does feel and respond like a grand piano, exactly like a grand piano. The guy who compared it to his VPC-1 was really compelling.

As to trying before buying, that makes sense with an acoustic piano, because they SOUND different (and, of course they feel different), but primarily, I think, it's the sound that you're auditioning. That wouldn't seem to be a problem with the Vidal. It's got my interest - not for myself, but to recommend to students who really need a grand piano, but can't afford one and/or don't have the room for one. If I understand things correctly, The Vidal plus what, another $1K, should get them a grand experience at a cost less than that of a hybrid.

For those who REALLY know, please suggest what else would be needed to set up a Vidal for such an individual.
The Vidal + a pedal? +good headphones + what sort of computer power + what else have I forgotten?

Good Day to all.

iternabe

Seeker Here are pictures showing the Vidal action vs Kawai Grand Feel action. From what I can see, they shouldn't feel much different. VPC1's action has shorter pivot length than Grand Feel, but everything else is the same. IMHO much of the premium paid to buy the Vidal goes for the look.

As for something feels and respond like a grand piano, that was what I was looking for when I decided Kawai Grand Feel (I, II, III) is the closest one can get in that regard without stepping up to a hybrid action. I can't tell how close is the "closest" feel. But I do know let off (simulated by a rubber nub), and repetition speed are two widely discussed concerns. GF action does have a hammer but it does not free fly. And without the whippen, the repetition lever, and the jacks, the feel transmitted back to the fingertip could be much too simplified compared to the real thing.

iternabe

Seeker For those who REALLY know, please suggest what else would be needed to set up a Vidal for such an individual.

The Vidal + a pedal? +good headphones + what sort of computer power + what else have I forgotten?

Computer: Mac Min M4 $500-600
Virtual Piano Library: Pianoteq, VI Labs Modern D, etc. $150-250
Triple Pedal: $100-$200
Headphone: a good one like Sennheiser 560/600/6XX $150-250
Piano stand and seat: $150-300

Optional:
Audio interface: $150-$250
Studio Monitor (& Subwoofer): $300-$500

KevinM

If the reviews are not just marketing stuff, but actually real reviews from owners the response is very positive.

There is possibly something equivalent to the placebo effect going on, so even without the reviews being sock puppets they may not be fully representative.

I will remain intrigued and keep an eye on things.

Florian75

Hey Seeker, I do REALLY know 🙂, so I will tell you:

You will need

5$ midi-midi cable
200$ audio interface like the Motu M2
5$ for a USB cable
0$ for an iphone, a tablet, a pc or a mac I use a 14 years old i7-3770T and it works fine
200$ for a good VST (pianoteq, vi labs modern D etc...)
10$ for 2 jack to xlr cables
500$ for monitoring speakers (genelec 8010 for a relatively cheap option)
300$ for a good stand like the K&M 18950 + all the arms for your speakers, music sheet stand etc...
30$ for a pedal

=1250$

Indeed, below 1000$ if you replace speakers by headphones.

Seeker

Florian75 Thank you very much. Very useful to me. I'm assuming this would work with a VPC-1 or similar controller as well.

WieWaldi

According to the pictures, it looks nice. Long wooden keysticks, seesaw design...
BUT: I don't see any levers, nothing that simulates a hammer. I see only the seesaw with a metal weight and the end. That's it. If I compare this design with the pictures of any other digital action (Kawai, Roland, Yamaha, doesn't matter), the other ones use a lot more parts for every key. I am sure, if the big manufacturers could save some parts per key - and keeping the same action feeling - they would do so.

So, what am I missing here?

Edit:
Review by Stevev T.:
When you open the cover, you see the full action, which is almost identical to my Steinway, except that instead of hammers hitting strings the back ends of the keys hit a firm, cross-bar.

Looks like it is only the seesaw keystick and a crossbar acting as a velocity sensor, right?

Florian75

WieWaldi

EXACTLY!!!! If just a balanced wood bar would replicate a steiway action, why would roland, kawai, casio and yamaha bother to have something that sophisticated!?

The fact no one explains it is suspicious.

CrisOliveira

WieWaldi
Allow me to be a "God's advocate" for Vidal, I mean, to indulge in plausible arguments in favor of it.

Vidal is FREAKING HEAVY. When you have hammer simulators, the extra length of such parts will contribute to the resistance you feel when playing. Since the weights in the Vidal are not attached to any extension, the makers compensate that with a heavier load.

You may wonder, wouldn't that feel linear? That would be unlike a grand piano. However I have asked an owner in the VI-Control forum and he told me it doesn't feel linear. How that is, I can only speculate. Counterweight? Friction?

Anyway, I doubt big brands would want their instruments to be heavier than they already are. The MP11SE is lighter, even though it has much more electronic hardware inside it than the Vidal.

Another possible source of good quality may be the amount of manual labor assembling and regulating each unit. Maybe the more complex mechanism in other instruments are easier to mass produce without putting so many extra hours of manual labor into it.

But you may ask, if "more moving parts" means "more prone to break", why would big brands sell stuff that is less reliable than an unmovable slab of steel? (Unmovable if your frame of reference is the butt of the keystick) Well, if it breaks after 5 years or so, you're more likely to buy a new one. They don't want you to be a one time buyer.

=================
Now I'll be the Devil's advocate: it's a luxury furniture piece and all satisfied buyers won't even consider criticizing such expensive buy.

(Edited for grammar correction)

Florian75

Seeker
Exactly!
And you can go step by step. At the beginning you use a table instead of a stand with dictionnaries on your chair.
You also do your testing with the demo version of pianoteq, you reuse an old headphone etc...

In fact the first investment to enter this beautiful world is is a 100$ Scarlet solo audio interface and cables.

Don't hesitate to use chatgpt, it's quite good on this topic.

Scherbakov_al

I really like the design. It's very stylish. It's executed very carefully and professionally. It's very aesthetically pleasing. But don't tell me it feels like a real piano. If there's no real mechanics, then it won't feel like one. Don't be fooled. Selling a 400-year-old mechanism with a magnet attached for an insane amount of money is just slick marketing.

Florian75

Scherbakov_al there is no magnet anymore, this was the 2023 design they abandonned based on the feedback of the 1st users.

iternabe

CrisOliveira Vidal is FREAKING HEAVY. When you have hammer simulators, the extra length of such parts will contribute to the resistance you feel when playing. Since the weights in the Vidal are not attached to any extension, the makers compensate that with a heavier load.

Reading this, and reexamining Vidal action's picture, I noticed weight plates are attached to both ends of the key stick. I suppose this would increase the moment of inertia, right? The keys would still be precisely balanced to teeter on the balance pin, so the static down weight can remain virtually unchanged. But when aiming to move the keys to a high velocity, finger should feel much more resistance (due to higher momentum of inertia). This is apparently better than those folded plastic actions. However, can the added weight be too much? After all, acoustic grand action also have weight added to the key stick but they are much smaller in size (e.g. small button battery sized).

CrisOliveira

iternabe However, can the added weight be too much? After all, acoustic grand action also have weight added to the key stick but they are much smaller in size (e.g. small button battery sized).

Does every acoustic piano key have counterweights? It always seemed to me that the use of lead was to compensate for irregularities among the keys, to achieve a desired touchweight in general and that it wasn't necessary outside of such cases. That's why I don't see much point in criticism over folded actions that don't feature counterweights, I mean, what would the maker be trying to compensate for in a design they themselves created and that is fundamentally different from the one in an acoustic piano?

I believe this is nothing new to y'all, but in these videos, we can clearly see how grands and uprights differ:

Uprights look like they are lifting the whippen, never losing contact, while grands look like they are punching it.
Maybe that's not universal? But can that be a rule of thumb?
Anyway, that's why folded actions can sometimes feel more like an upright than a grand. I don't know how Kawai's GF feels, but the principle is not that different from folded ones. The hammers are always making contact with the keys' capstan/cam, keys are levers between fingers and hammers, hammers are levers between keys and their own center of mass. That's why that Casio/Bechstein action is so well praised. It features a whippen counterpart that seems to give a bit of a wiggle room to it.

Maybe the material, a heavier load (which calls for counterweights) and the friction with the pins are responsible for both Kawai's GF and Vidal to feel more like a grand piano than folded actions do?

Don't trust me, I'm not an engineer.