Proper use of 8va and 8ba

WieWaldi

pianoloverus but I think it would have been much simpler to read if he had used the treble clef for the left hand part.

I strongly disagree to you for two reasons:

treble clef for the LH is annoying (yes I know it exists a lot - but it is still annoying)
you would run into much more ledger lines (see bar 63 of your example - Youtube preview screen)

pianoloverus

WieWaldi but I think it would have been much simpler to read if he had used the treble clef for the left hand part.

I strongly disagree to you for two reasons:
treble clef for the LH is annoying (yes I know it exists a lot - but it is still annoying)
you would run into much more ledger lines (see bar 63 of your example - Youtube preview screen)

Treble clef for left hand Is quite common and not annoying for experienced pianists.
I was very careful to say that my suggestion works well but only for around the first two pages. I am well aware that later in the piece using the treble clef for the left hand would require a very large number of ledger lines and not be so good. A simple solution is to switch to the normal base clef for the left hand when appropriate but not use the 8 notation for the left hand. There is a published score of all the pieces in Jarrett's recording The Melody At Night With You that includes this piece. I just checked the score and the transcriber does exactly what I'm suggesting. When I learned this piece I unfortunately used the score from the video I posted which I found awkward because of the notation under discussion.

WieWaldi

pianoloverus Treble clef for left hand Is quite common and not annoying for experienced pianists.

I know. Still I think it is a misconception in the general way how our sheet music is set up.
Wouldn't it be way better if not so experienced pianists have the same access to the sheet music without learning three different setups:

I can read treble for RH and bass for LH ✅
I can read treble for RH and treble for LH 😵✅
I can read bass for RH 😵 and bass for LH ✅

Or in other words, having only one setup would make pianists to be "experienced" for at least a year earlier.

WieWaldi

pianoloverus A simple solution is to switch to the normal base clef for the left hand when appropriate but not use the 8 notation for the left hand.

I don't know the score you are referring. But I agree to switch the clefs (or shift octaves) for sections when it makes sense. In my example of bar 63 bass-8va is simply the best solution. Maybe there are other parts in the score where a normal bass clef makes more sense. Or a LH-treble clef.
The thing what I was adressing here: there is no "official" clef that addresses the range of either "treble-8ba" or "bass-8va". (The notes around middle C, ±10 notes.)
But all other ranges above treble and below bass clef can be shifted in single octave steps - which is a good thing.

pianoloverus

WieWaldi I know. Still I think it is a misconception in the general way how our sheet music is set up.
Wouldn't it be way better if not so experienced pianists have the same access to the sheet music without learning three different setups:
I can read treble for RH and bass for LH ✅
I can read treble for RH and treble for LH 😵✅
I can read bass for RH 😵 and bass for LH ✅

Or in other words, having only one setup would make pianists to be "experienced" for at least a year earlier.

It's not one set up if one has to learn to read the bass clef with an 8 above it because that requires extra practice because it's rare. And one could argue that reading the left hand when it uses a treble clef is not separate since it only requires knowledge of reading the treadle clef.

pianoloverus

WieWaldi A simple solution is to switch to the normal base clef for the left hand when appropriate but not use the 8 notation for the left hand.

I don't know the score you are referring. But I agree to switch the clefs (or shift octaves) for sections when it makes sense. In my example of bar 63 bass-8va is simply the best solution.

Not really and that's not what the transcriber of that book of transcriptions I mentioned does. If using the treble clef for the left hand requires a large number of ledger lines one should simply switch to the normal base clef which is exactly what that transcriber does.

WieWaldi

pianoloverus if one has to learn to read the bass clef with an 8 above it because that requires extra practice because it's rare.

Can't disagree more.
My brain is trained to read treble clef for the upper staff, used for the right hand. And it is used to read bass clef on the lower staff for the left hand.
And I have no problem when I see an octave shift, no matter if it is a 8va 8ba 15va or 15ba. You know what - I could do it from the very first second of my piano journey - even without practicing. It is as difficult as finding the middle C on a keyboard with less than 88 keys. Is your statement really, that I need practice to apply a 8ba on the treble clef? Really?!?

But: If I see a treble clef for LH, my brain is screwed. Why? Because I am not used to it. Because 95% of all sheet music uses treble for RH and bass for LH.

WieWaldi

pianoloverus If using the treble clef for the left hand requires a large number of ledger lines one should simply switch to the normal base clef.

Well... again disagree:

WieWaldi

@"pianoloverus"#p31609

WieWaldi I don't think any experienced pianist would make the comment in your second sentence because they've had lots of experience with treble clef notation for the left hand.

Probably you learned this along with many other experienced pianist with a long time ago and have forgotten that this was hard work.

@"pianoloverus"#p31609 I have said several times that that the transcriber of the volume I mentioned (not the transcriber of the video I posted) did exactly what I've been suggesting as the best approach.

show me

pianoloverus

WieWaldi if one has to learn to read the bass clef with an 8 above it because that requires extra practice because it's rare.

Can't disagree more.
My brain is trained to read treble clef for the upper staff, used for the right hand. And it is used to read bass clef on the lower staff for the left hand.

I don't think any experienced pianist would say what you said in your second sentence because they've had so much experience playing the left hand with the treble clef notation. I've also said several times that the transcriber of the of the volume containing this piece (not the transcriber of the video I posted) chose to notate the piece exactly the way that I've been describing.

WieWaldi

pianoloverus I don't think any experienced pianist would say what you said in your second sentence because they've had so much experience playing the left hand with the treble clef notation.

You are always referring to experienced pianists. And I know why. Because it needs some experience to learn this cumbersomeness within music notation.
The way I describe doesn't need to get this experience. The way I describe makes sheet music readable for more pianists. Making more pianists able to play a bigger variety of music without extra practice.

pianoloverus I've also said several times that the transcriber of the of the volume containing this piece (not the transcriber of the video I posted) chose to notate the piece exactly the way that I've been describing.

show me

keystring

WieWaldi My brain is trained to read treble clef for the upper staff, used for the right hand. And it is used to read bass clef on the lower staff for the left hand.
But: If I see a treble clef for LH, my brain is screwed. Why? Because I am not used to it. Because 95% of all sheet music uses treble for RH and bass for LH.

This is actually a problem caused by how piano music is often taught. I know teachers who make sure that students don't fall into this trap. I'd disagree about the 95%. Piano music moves over a great range, with both hands traveling all over the keyboard. You can have multiple clef changes in music. Being trained to associate one hand with one clef, the other hand with the other clef, is similar to the old finger numbers method with students staying in "C position" for a long time, and suddenly when the music is in D major or a passage starts on D, it's a mindf* when D isn't a 2nd finger note anymore.

WieWaldi

keystring I'd disagree about the 95%.

An AI, who downloaded basically the internet and has seen a ton of sheet music should be more qualified to answer this:

Maybe not 95%, maybe 90%. Who cares. It's the overwhelming majority. It's the standard. My point stays 100% valid.

WieWaldi

keystring Being trained to associate one hand with one clef, the other hand with the other clef, is similar to the old finger numbers method with students staying in "C position" for a long time, and suddenly when the music is in D major or a passage starts on D, it's a mindf* when D isn't a 2nd finger note anymore.

With one big difference, making your statement an apples and oranges thing:

The C position does not allow to play all music. There is no other way around than leaving this comfort zone.
The need to use sometimes the bass clef for RH and vice versa is a convention. There are multiple alternatives - they all work - and some of them are even easier to learn.

keystring

WieWaldi With one big difference, making your statement an apples and oranges thing:

The C position does not allow to play all music. There is no other way around than leaving this comfort zone.
The need to use sometimes the bass clef for RH and vice versa is a convention. There are multiple alternatives - they all work - and some of them are even easier to learn.

The point is that music doesn't always stay in C position with D played with finger 2: Music isn't always written with treble clef for the RH, bass clef for the LH. In both cases, if you learn in a restrictive manner, it will become difficult to play the music that is out there.

Reading can be taught in a manner that makes things difficult to learn. Shortcuts for "quick progress" in the beginning can become a handicap later on. I've seen small children learn to navigate among the clefs because of how they were taught. Music in a clef denote locations on the keyboard. Would you have trouble locating your kitchen if you stepped into it with your left foot instead of your right? The kitchen is still where it is. The piano key that is two octaves to the left or right of middle C is still in the same place regardless of which hand or finger you choose to go there. If you were taught LH = treble, RH = bass, then you've been handed a handicap.

keystring

WieWaldi An AI, who downloaded basically the internet and has seen a ton of sheet music

AI doesn't "see" anything. It goes through tons of statements in words and a lot of those statements are simplistic. Well, when would such statements be made? At the point of teaching beginners - and that simplified advice is given very often. An advanced musician would not ask, or be told, about clefs, so such statements would not be there for the AI to collect.

WieWaldi

keystring It's not rocket science to count the number of sheet music with the regular grand stave (treble/bass clef) and the one that isn't, It is just a lot of work and this is exactly where AI excells at. I don't know, how exactly "overwhelming" translate into a percentage, but I am quite sure it sits somewhere in the above 90% range. And I totally agree that is impossible to name an exact percentage, because which piece to count, which is a copy of something already counted, and should I count something that is only a slight variation of something counted.

If you don't trust me nor AI, go ahead, take all of your sheet music and tell me how many bars use the regular grand staff (octave shifts included) and how many don't.

WieWaldi

keystring tell me something new

What I am really interested is your opinion about the 1_st post in this thread?

WieWaldi

@keystring And I am interested what you think about this statement:

WieWaldi The thing what I was adressing here: there is no "official" clef that addresses the range of either "treble-8ba" or "bass-8va". (The notes around middle C, ±10 notes.)

With "official" I mean, you are not allowed to lower the treble clef, not to raise the bass clef by an octave. (And alto clef isn't for piano, anyway. 😄)

Animisha

WieWaldi
8ba (lowering an octave) is NOT used together with the treble clef
and 8va (raising an octave) must not be used together with bass clef

Who wrote these rules? Who will enforce them? What is the punishment for breaking them?

My answer is that sheet music is just a means of telling musicians how to play a piece of music. The way it looks is utterly unimportant! What matters is that it needs to remind you on how to play. If it helps you to read the notes with 8ba on treble clef, use it. If you like 8va on the bass clef, use it. You are free!

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