Technical/Theory question (fingering)

Player1

When it comes to technique, while playing scales proper fingering has you use your outermost fingers of one hand to begin/end on the key note of the scale.

I have a piece I'm working on (Reflections by Dennis Alexander) that is in GM. The last bit of the last phrase is LH only. These notes are:
G(2) D,E,F#,G(3),A,B,G(1)

For fingering, technically I should begin with my LH pinky on G(2)and be putting my LH thumb on G(3) as I go up the keyboard. This results in a fingering pattern, if we're adhering to proper technique, of:
5,1,3,2,1,4,3,5

For me, I can comfortably play the passage that way or as; 5,2,1,3,2,1,2,3 (or 2). Basically I'm just walking my fingers along the keyboard and it's simple to do this and keep tempo.

At this point I've played it so many times I suspect I could use just my 2 index fingers to peck out the sequence and get it right on both notes and tempo. However, my question is more about technique versus anything else. Thus to the question.

Should I be pushing myself to use the proper fingering? Or is doing it the other (lazy but comfortable) way acceptable? I know it doesn't actually matter all that much in this instance because the piece isn't all that technical/challenging, but that's not really the issue.

So, from the lofty perspective of you higher level players, should proper technique always be something to strive for by us lower level guys? Or can we get away with casual Fridays at the piano?

Animisha

Player1 Should I be pushing myself to use the proper fingering? Or is doing it the other (lazy but comfortable) way acceptable?

Everybody's hands are different. Size, strength, flexibility, no one has the same hands. So I see fingering as recommendations, but one of the first things I do with a new piece is to change some of the fingering into something that suits me best.

Having said that... if your favourite fingering avoids practising something that is underdeveloped in you, you may consider changing it. For instance, if you have a weak fourth finger, make sure you use it.

Player1 should proper technique always be something to strive for by us lower level guys?

Yes, especially for us lower level folks. Higher level pianist know what they are doing and are not as much in risk for engraining wrong technique (wrong in the sense of, potentially hurtful for our hands and arms, or not favourable for creating a beautiful, expressive sound). But changing the fingering so it suits your hands is not part of bad technique.

pianoloverus

The "proper fingering" applies when you're practicing scales over at least one octave. It doesn't apply here so any comfortable and efficient fingering is OK. I would choose the second one you mentioned if the choice was only between the two fingerings you mentioned. Another possible fingering could be 5132121 since it's probably easier to jump down to the low G if the highest note is played with the thumb.

keystring

When practising scales, there are some scales, which we also usually learn first, that begin on the outer fingers and when ending on the top note will end on the other outer finger, as you wrote. With other scales such as Eb major, you don't. There are some principles:

The piano has 5 black keys arranged in 2's and 3's, which are further in and higher up. If you drape your hand over E, F# G# A# B your long fingers will be comfortably on the black keys, while the two short fingers are hanging down a bit like the natural shape of your hand.
You have three inner long fingers, and two outer short fingers
You want to make playing as comfortable as possible using the geography of the piano, and in playing scales, use as few turns as possible per octave.

That is what determines your fingering.

Player1

I thought the point of scales is to teach that fingering is based on the key signature. This way no matter what notes are in the score, you can reach them by using proper fingering for that key because your "longer fingers" will automatically be there for the black keys.

I also understand this isn't immutable. For instance, another phrase in the score has the LH playing G,D; G,E; G,Eb. I'm playing this 5,1; 5,1; 5,2. Which doesn't follow the fingering pattern for GM but works for that bit since the Eb isn't in the GM scale anyway. So, other than that, the fingering pattern should follow the fingering pattern for the key.

I mean, why wouldn't it?

pianoloverus

Player1 I thought the point of scales is to teach that fingering is based on the key signature. This way no matter what notes are in the score, you can reach them by using proper fingering for that key because your "longer fingers" will automatically be there for the black keys.

I also understand this isn't immutable. For instance, another phrase in the score has the LH playing G,D; G,E; G,Eb. I'm playing this 5,1; 5,1; 5,2. Which doesn't follow the fingering pattern for GM but works for that bit since the Eb isn't in the GM scale anyway. So, other than that, the fingering pattern should follow the fingering pattern for the key.

I mean, why wouldn't it?

Your example in the second paragraph shows that the fingering used when playing scales for at least an octave or practicing scales does not always apply for actual pieces. And the example you gave in the second paragraph is not even a scale so your thinking in terms of scale fingering is not relevant.

If one plays part of a full scale (a scale fragment) in some piece one wouldn't necessarily use the fingering on those notes that one would use when practicing scales over one or more octaves. The fingering would be also determined by the notes before the scalar fragment. For example, for the notes you gave one might be able to put the thumb on the E flat depending on what came after that note.

pianoloverus

Animisha But changing the fingering so it suits your hands is not part of bad technique.

This is true with one caveat. As one can see on numerous amateur YT videos, pianists sometimes choose poor fingerings that really are inefficient and very bad due to poor technique or lack of experience choosing fingerings. So while the pianist might think those fingerings suit their hands, they are not good choices.

Nightowl

Sophia I agree with everything you said, Sophia.

@Player1 - I agree with what Animisha said upthread - everybody's hands are different so it's just a case of finding the best fingering pattern that works for you and sticking with it. Don't be a slave to theory - in the real world a more pragmatic approach is often more useful. Good luck P1, I hope you find the right solution for you.

thepianoplayer416

Fingering is not a 1-size fits all thing. There are pieces with suggested fingerings on the page. With a small hand I have to work around some uncomfortable big stretches.

Try to avoid the short outside fingers for the black keys except when playing chords.

pseudonym58

Although others seem to be able to deal with it easily, might I ask a favor? In the future, if it's possible, post a picture of the sheet music section in question with the current fingering being used. Or perhaps a couple of pictures with the different options you've considered. It makes it much quicker for people like myself, and I'm genuinely interested in this kind of discussion.
Thanks!

Player1

pseudonym58

I will try but no guarantees.

This score for this particular piece can be seen in this video with the fingering in question in measure 27 (at about 1:25):

The recommended fingering is 5,2,1,4,3,2,1 then the low G. To me this is wrong from both a technical viewpoint but also a biomechanical standpoint because it requires tossing my elbow to get 4 on the F#.

pianoloverus

Player1 What you call tossing your elbow is the standard passing of 4 over the thumb which is common in many scales. Another possible fingering is the one I suggested earlier in the thread.

MRC

Player1 The recommended fingering is 5,2,1,4,3,2,1 then the low G. To me this is wrong from both a technical viewpoint but also a biomechanical standpoint because it requires tossing my elbow to get 4 on the F#.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "technical viewpoint" as opposed to a "biomechanical viewpoint", but in any case the printed fingering is perfectly logical and it's the one I'd recommend. Here's the passage, taken from the video you posted (we're talking about the last two bars):

The suggested fingering minimises the number of times you cross over the thumb: you only do so once, and it's at a comfortable point since the 4th finger falls on a black key. It's exactly the same movement you will have to execute if you play a scale of E major that goes over more than one octave.

There is no need to "toss your elbow": if your fingers and wrist are relaxed enough, the arm movement will remain smooth.

One more thing: the whole passage is to be played with the pedal held down, so you don't need to make a strict finger legato. Just glide across from the E to the F# and don't worry if there is a slight gap in the sound when you practice without pedal: when you play it as written the pedal will remove the gap.

MRC

Player1 Here's a thought: can you play an E minor scale with the standard fingering? Here it is, in the natural (as opposed to harmonic or melodic) version:

Now look at these six notes:

Compare them with these six notes in your example:

The exact same six notes, with the exact same fingering! If you can play an E minor scale without twisting your wrist and causing injury, you can play the example with the suggested fingering. If not, you need to ask a piano teacher what you are doing wrong.

Player1

MRC
Except the key signature isn't E Major, it's G Major. The correct LH fingering for the G Major scale would have me starting with my pinky on G and then putting my thumb on G as I go up the scale regardless of how many octaves I'm playing. Thus the "technically correct" fingering for GM in this measure would be 5(G), 1(D), 3(E), 2(F#), 1(G), 4(A), 3(B). That means that 4 on F# would be improper, require twisting the wrist, or lifting the elbow. All of which are wasted energy and/or could cause injury. None lead to relaxation.

MRC

Player1 The set of fingerings that is traditionally taught for scales is not the only possibility, nor necessarily the best one. Many pianists choose other fingerings that are better adapted to the lengths of the fingers.

Furthermore, when you encounter scale passages in a piece of music, there is no rule that states that the "technically correct" fingering is the same as the one you use when you play the whole scale. It's better to create a fingering that fits the particular passage, using basic principles such as putting the longer fingers on black keys and trying to minimise thumb crossings.

In this case there is nothing that says putting the 4th finger on F# is improper, and if the crossing of the 4th finger over the thumb causes you to twist the wrist or lift the elbow in such a way that could cause injury, you need to learn the correct way to execute this movement, since it is very often used in piano music.

pianoloverus

Player1 Except the key signature isn't E Major, it's G Major. The correct LH fingering for the G Major scale would have me starting with my pinky on G and then putting my thumb on G as I go up the scale regardless of how many octaves I'm playing. Thus the "technically correct" fingering for GM in this measure would be 5(G), 1(D), 3(E), 2(F#), 1(G), 4(A), 3(B). That means that 4 on F# would be improper, require twisting the wrist, or lifting the elbow. All of which are wasted energy and/or could cause injury. None lead to relaxation.

You have some misconceptions about the standard fingering used for full scales for more than one octave versus what is appropriate parts of scales. The passage in question isn't a G major scale over more than one octave or even one octave. If you still feel obliged to use 51321 on the first five notes, then at least use 21 or 32 on the next two notes. No experienced pianist would crossover with four to play the A for this passage.

Seeker

Well, it depends on the size of your hands as well as their configuration.
I would play in the LH starting with bar 25, 5-3-1, bar 26, 4-2-1, then in 27, 5-2-1-3-2-1-2 -1 (or 2 or 3, but not 5, the low G simply can't be connected with finger legato in any event, and using a finger other than 5 encourages you to contract your hand back from its spread position to neutral position, thus relaxing it).
Speaking of relaxing from a spread position and relaxing in between stretches, if you use in the RH on the 8ve G and its subsequent repeat at end of bar 25 going into bar 26, you could try 1-5-3, then going into bar 27, 1-4 at the end to 5/1 at Bar 27 through 28.

Player1

MRC

The E minor isn't relevant since the piece is in G Major and I'm not transposing. Whether I can or can't play the E minor scale isn't relevant either. Also, not everyone has a piano teacher. Instead we come to piano forums like this one and ask questions hoping that a teacher will chime in and help us in our understanding of theory and technique instead of being criticized or shamed for things we're not asking about.

Reverting back to the original post; the measure is a partial G Major scale spanning 2 octaves. Proper technique for the G Major scale would have me begin with 5 on G and use the appropriate fingers on each of the following keys. Since this is a partial scale, I would be skipping any notes which aren't on the score yet continuing on up the scale using the proper fingering as if I had played those notes. Even the relative minor would have me begin with the same finger I'd be using if I were playing the Major scale so that my other fingers would naturally fall where they need to be in order to comfortably and efficiently play the keys and reach the black keys with my longest fingers.

This is the technique/theory that I've learned from the method books and I'm fairly certain that I'm correct in my understanding of it.

As I noted in the original post, I'm not doing that. Which gave rise to the question I asked of whether I should be.

pianoloverus

Player1 This is the technique/theory that I've learned from the method books and I'm fairly certain that I'm correct in my understanding of it.

Either the method book is wrong or, which is probably the case, you misunderstood what was in the book. Multiple people, many with many decades of experience, have told you this and explained why your thinking was incorrect. You say you came here for help yet several posters have told you the same thing and you keep on saying you're right and they're wrong?

pianoloverus

Player1 Reverting back to the original post; the measure is a partial G Major scale spanning 2 octaves. Proper technique for the G Major scale would have me begin with 5 on G and use the appropriate fingers on each of the following keys. Since this is a partial scale, I would be skipping any notes which aren't on the score yet continuing on up the scale using the proper fingering as if I had played those notes.

Simply not true.

MRC

Player1 The E minor isn't relevant since the piece is in G Major and I'm not transposing.

it doesn't matter if the key signature is G major, E minor or Db double harmonic, these are the exact same six notes.

Player1 Also, not everyone has a piano teacher. Instead we come to piano forums like this one and ask questions hoping that a teacher will chime in and help us in our understanding of theory and technique instead of being criticized or shamed for things we're not asking about.

You are getting answers: listen to them.

Player1 Proper technique for the G Major scale would have me begin with 5 on G and use the appropriate fingers on each of the following keys.

We've explained that this is not proper technique when playing a passage that is not a complete scale. If a passage contains only parts of a scale, there is no reason to stick to the fingering you use when you play the whole scale. Proper technique means that you choose a fingering adapted for the passage in question.

All the fingering printed in the score shown in the video you posted adheres to the principles of good technique.

rsl12

Player1 Reverting back to the original post; the measure is a partial G Major scale spanning 2 octaves. Proper technique for the G Major scale would have me begin with 5 on G and use the appropriate fingers on each of the following keys. Since this is a partial scale, I would be skipping any notes which aren't on the score yet continuing on up the scale using the proper fingering....

This is the technique/theory that I've learned from the method books and I'm fairly certain that I'm correct in my understanding of it.

Hi Player1, is the method book you're referring to Faber Level 1? I have it, so I'm curious to look up what in the book gave you this impression. If my word or my experience means anything to you, I can say with 100% confidence that pianolover and MRC are correct on this matter, though I think there's nothing wrong with using your preferred fingering if it's more comfortable for you. The only thing that concerns me is that the printed fingering should not be causing you discomfort, and the fact that it does is an indication of a possible technique problem. If your technique is fine but there's an insurmountable physical reason why it's hard (an incorrectable lack of flexibility, for example), then ignore my worry.

I'm sorry you're feeling frustrated about this, but I don't see anywhere in this conversation where anyone has called you stupid or even implied as much. At the same time, I can see why you are feeling put down, as some of the emphatic statements made by others could have been made more gently. And lastly I can see why many people here (including you) feel frustration, having put into this conversation so much effort and not seeing much understanding.

I know everyone here is capable of continuing this conversation civilly, with respect for other's feelings.

Player1

pianoloverus

No I'm asking a question and what I'm getting in response is that I'm stupid and don't know anything.

The scale fingering patterns are well published everywhere. They all agree with my understanding. If that's the case shouldn't I be using the fingering pattern for the scale when playing?

Note this is not a question about what finger pattern is "better" or what alernative fingering pattern I should use.

Player1

pianoloverus

What isn't true about it? Are you saying that playing a L:H G Major scale doesn't start on 5? Or that you can just willy nilly play the individual notes in the scale with any finger you please?

The LH G Major scale fingering pattern is as shown here:

The finger pattern is 5,4,3,2,1,3,2,1,4,3,2,1,3,2,1 and then reverse to descend.

So what's not true about what I posted?