The subtleties of pedaling

twocats · 2025-04-15T15:26:27+00:00

I really like this performance of Chopin's Fantasie-Impromptu and was trying to figure out how Dmitry Shishkin has so much clarity in his right hand while pe...

pianoloverus

keystring the pedal is often held down for an entire measure and that measure is played legato.

Can you define "legato"? I gave how I perceive legato. You have notes that go one into the other (not staccato) but they also don't blur together. If the pedal is held down the entire measure, they will blur together.

Legato just means there's no break in sound from one note to the next. Whether the notes blur or not has nothing to do with legato. If you play C, E, G and put the pedal down before playing C the notes will sound legato and blur together.

keystring

twocats I think you need to update your definition!

What you were taught was what everyone is taught as a beginner, because it doesn't make sense to complicate it further (and some people play robotically and will never reach understanding of musical phrasing anyway) but once you're playing at a higher level, you can add more nuance to your definition

When discussing things in a forum, I seek out how other people understand things - their definition. The biggest block to communication in such places is when two or more people talk about "a thing", and everyone is picturing something different. This was not my definition per se. 🙂 In fact since this morning I threw out several hypothetical definitions to try to stretch things.

Robotic playing is something I've never been accused of. 😃 Excessive rubato in the early days perhaps. I shared an example of my level of playing privately earlier.

keystring

I tried this morning to jump start a possible exploration of the music and elements that Sgisela posted. This turned into something that turns round and round on the single question of how legato is defined. It misses the point, and doesn't go where I hoped it would go for that exploration, where I hoped people would have different ideas about the music.

Tbh, in my studies we don't do much with definitions. I learned a lot of them quite a few years back and as was pointed out, actual music goes beyond those definitions and blurs those lines.

When I work with music, as I've been guided to do, I don't strictly follow markings and words. I don't ignore them either, but one goes to intent, what the music contains. You get technical tools such as the ability to do dynamics, articulations, various kinds of pedal and you use those tools to craft the music so as to make it sound as you think it should sound - which is also interpretation through some understanding. I'm not sure that personally I'd be doing much with those words "non-legato" together with the pedal markings at all. The music itself seems to suggest what it wants.

I was very interested this morning on what the different pianists / piano students might come up with ideas for this music. This is gone rather awry, it seems. 🙂

BartK

keystring I tried this morning to jump start a possible exploration of the music and elements that Sgisela posted. This turned into something that turns round and round on the single question of how legato is defined.

Discussions are open and don't have to go the way anyone in particular wants. Rather than complain a better strategy might be to lead. 😉

We did in fact talk about Sgisela's example and how it can be interpreted. My take on it, as this is an impressionistic composer (it's Charles Griffes BTW), is that the openning figure is to be treated as a mood-setting accompaniment rather than it's own musical line. I don't know if I would pedal it throughout but that's a possible effect to create a cloud of sound like in some Ravel and Debussy pieces. In any case, I think here the composer is giving instructions on what musical effect is intended more than specific physical instructions on how to execute the passage.

pianoloverus

BartK I think here the composer is giving instructions on what musical effect is intended more than specific physical instructions on how to execute the passage.

I think if a composer Mark specific pedaling instructions in a piece, those are clearly specific instructions on how to pedal the passage.

keystring

BartK Discussions are open and don't have to go the way anyone in particular wants. Rather than complain a better strategy might be to lead

Sorry if this was misunderstood. I felt I had inadvertently led us down a rabbit hole about what 'legato' meant because of a single sentence that was grabbed, and wanted to try to put a bridge over that hole.

BartK My take on it, as this is an impressionistic composer (it's Charles Griffes BTW), is that the openning figure is to be treated as a mood-setting accompaniment rather than it's own musical line. I don't know if I would pedal it throughout but that's a possible effect to create a cloud of sound like in some Ravel and Debussy pieces. In any case, I think here the composer is giving instructions on what musical effect is intended more than specific physical instructions on how to execute the passage.

Thank you. That is the kind of thing I was looking for. I didn't know the piece or the composer. I did try in my opening post yesterday to clumsily distinguish between specific "how to" instructions (pedal here, staccato there), and "what kind of sound we want" which might lead to a version of a "pedal here" how-to or explain the choice already given. What you described goes directly to that. It's the "what kind of sound is wanted" and then doing what is needed to get there. I find it a fantastic post for a lot of reasons.

pianoloverus I think if a composer Mark specific pedaling instructions in a piece, those are clearly specific instructions on how to pedal the passage.

I've often been shown where instructions were off and didn't work well, or where other or modified choices might give a better effect. Sometimes also such markings are put in by whoever creates the written version of the music to 'help' students. For older music there is also the fact that pianos have changed. Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata and the instructions to hold the pedal down in that one movement is often discussed. B's piano had much less sustain than our modern piano.

BartK

pianoloverus I think if a composer Mark specific pedaling instructions in a piece, those are clearly specific instructions on how to pedal the passage.

I was talking about the "non legato" not the pedal.

pianoloverus

keystring I think if a composer Mark specific pedaling instructions in a piece, those are clearly specific instructions on how to pedal the passage.

I've often been shown where instructions were off and didn't work well, or where other or modified choices might give a better effect. Sometimes also such markings are put in by whoever creates the written version of the music to 'help' students. For older music there is also the fact that pianos have changed. Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata and the instructions to hold the pedal down in that one movement is often discussed. B's piano had much less sustain than our modern piano.

In my comments, I am assuming the pedal indications were by the composer. If not, then they're just editorial suggestions. It's also true that sometimes a composer's instructions, at least in the opinion of the performer, don't sound good so the performer does something else which is perfectly reasonable. But assuming the pedal indications were written by the composer, if a composer marks specific pedaling instructions in a piece, those are clearly specific instructions on how the composer wants the pianist to pedal the passage. They are no different from dynamic markings or any other markings the composer includes.

keystring

pianoloverus In my comments, I am assuming the pedal indications were by the composer.

I included "by composer" in what I wrote. 😉

pianoloverus

keystring I was responding to your comment that markings in the score could be by an editor and not the composer.

keystring

pianoloverus I was responding to your comment that markings in the score could be by an editor and not the composer.

got it. thx.

pianoloverus

BartK I think if a composer Mark specific pedaling instructions in a piece, those are clearly specific instructions on how to pedal the passage.

I was talking about the "non legato" not the pedal.

OK but since you said:
"I don't know if I would pedal it throughout but that's a possible effect to create a cloud of sound like in some Ravel and Debussy pieces. In any case, I think here the composer is giving instructions on what musical effect is intended more than specific physical instructions on how to execute the passage."
I quite naturally assumed you were talking about the pedal indication.

twocats

@iternabe sorry I didn't get to my piano earlier, but here's the demo I promised showing the (edited description to be more clear) difference between legato and non-legato phrasing with pedal. I think the difference is pretty obvious 🙂

MRC

twocats I think the difference is pretty obvious

I purposefully listened to this without looking at the video. I heard differences in speed, in dynamics, in accentuation, in rubato, but I was incapable of saying which examples had been played staccato or legato.

pianoloverus

twocats sorry I didn't get to my piano earlier, but here's the demo I promised showing the difference between legato with pedal and non-legato with pedal. I think the difference is pretty obvious

Unless you play the notes for the legato passage and the staccato passage at the exact same volume and speed which I don't think you do, I don't think the test is valid. If you think there's a difference, there should be a logical explanation for it, but I don't think there is. Can you give one? Whether you play staccato or legato all the dampers are up during the whole passage so the only thing determining the sound is the speed of the key hitting the strings and the corresponding volume of each note.

iternabe

twocats Thank you very much for doing the demo!

I started watching the beginning part of it, then decided I should probably avoid visual cues influencing my auditory perception. So I put on my best set of headphones, and closed my eyes. I listened to the entire clip at least 5 times. To be honest, I could not tell which phrase you were doing legato fingering, and which non-legato fingering. I do hear slight difference in dynamics, and clear difference in timing.

As I am writing this, I still have not watched the entire demo, for fear of seeing/knowing what you did would change my perception.

twocats

twocats here's the demo I promised showing the difference between legato with pedal and non-legato with pedal

I changed the title of the video to "Demo legato and non-legato phrasing while using pedal", hopefully that's more clear.

The context of the discussion before was musical intentions of the composer, and what to do when they've indicated non-legato but also pedal use.

keystring

When I watch and listen, you articulate the notes in a particular way. There are two factors: joining notes together by hand as one must do for "finger-legato" versus not joining the notes together so as to have a space were there no pedal. The other factor is articulation - how the fingers are put down with what kind of speed or "force". If you aim to play "staccato" with the idea of a particular quality of sound - i.e. sharp, distinct - then you'd have a particular articulation - whereas your legato may be aiming for smooth, even, non-sharp sounds. Both of these things are going on.

I (anyone) can play non-legato with pedal down and make it sound like legato with pedal down, provided the right articulation is there. One can also do the sharp distinct staccato sound with pedal down, and then play legato in a forceful or articulated manner and get that effect.

Originally you wrote about staccato rather than non-legato, and indeed that kind of staccato would sound different with pedal down, than a smooth legato with pedal down. Hope this makes sense.

twocats

keystring When I watch and listen, you articulate the notes in a particular way.

Yes, that's the point 🙂

Maybe I should have just kept the demo simpler but I just wanted to show that you can indeed play non-legato with the pedal down, by using different articulation.

pianoloverus

MRC I purposefully listened to this without looking at the video. I heard differences in speed, in dynamics, in accentuation, in rubato, but I was incapable of saying which examples had been played staccato or legato.

And since you heard differences in speed, dynamics, accentuation, and rubato It means the test was not valid I M O. A valid test would have none of those differences and the ONLY difference would be playing legato versus the staccato.

twocats

@MRC @pianoloverus what about the section just starting at 1:08, at the end?

Maybe the beginning part wasn't the best example.

The whole point was that some composer indicated that they wanted a section non-legato and pedaled. I think at least the end section shows that you can have a very non-legato sound, even with the pedal.

pianoloverus

twocats what about the section just starting at 1:08, at the end?

Maybe the beginning part wasn't the best example.

The whole point was that some composer indicated that they wanted a section non-legato and pedaled. I think at least the end section shows that you can have a very non-legato sound, even with the pedal.

You didn't answer the question in my post that why playing staccato sound different from legato with the pedal held down. Why should it matter how quickly you release the note if the pedal is held down? In order to do a valid test, you need to keep everything except the articulation the same. Although there was very little if any difference in the sound I don't think you did that in your examples.

keystring

twocats The whole point was that some composer indicated that they wanted a section non-legato and pedaled. I think at least the end section shows that you can have a very non-legato sound, even with the pedal.

If that was your point, you did bring it across in your playing.

twocats (to me) Maybe I should have just kept the demo simpler but I just wanted to show that you can indeed play non-legato with the pedal down, by using different articulation.

Got it. I was going by a conversation a few days ago where you seemed to be saying that of necessity, a passage played with pedal down and legato hand motions, and a passage played with pedal down and "staccato" hand motions, would sound different. This time you used the term "non-legato" instead of "staccato". For "staccato" once we discussed it, the differentiation was the articulation - the motion aiming for that crisp sound.

It was an important point, because it should be known that one can get the same sound with pedal down regardless of using legato or non-legato hand motions, because of how the piano works. Articulation is the other property. Someone might get off track for a long time otherwise.

twocats

pianoloverus You didn't answer the question in my post that why playing staccato sound different from legato with the pedal held down. Why should it matter how quickly you release the note if the pedal is held down? In order to do a valid test, you need to keep everything except the articulation the same. Although there was very little if any difference in the sound

It does sound different to me. Yes, it is due to phrasing. It's the difference in what a beautiful legato is supposed to sound like versus a more mechanical sound.

Anyway, that wasn't the reason I made the demo. At the end at 1:08 I think it's a very clear demonstration of non-legato sound with pedal on.

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