The subtleties of pedaling

twocats

I really like this performance of Chopin's Fantasie-Impromptu and was trying to figure out how Dmitry Shishkin has so much clarity in his right hand while pedaling. I realized that he must apply a very light pedal and I've been experimenting, and there's a huge difference from using just a touch of pedal vs foot all the way down. I think I've always been aware of the difference between quickly lifting the damper pedal and gradually lifting it, but have never consciously tried to apply it lightly. I think having a well-regulated grand piano opens up so much possibility for nuance! I know the pedal response will be different on other pianos but I think that's something one figures out by listening. (Also, just love that Yamaha concert grand!)

Coincidentally, I've been watching the Chopin Podcast and in one of the comments someone said there should be a whole video on pedaling and Ben Laude pointed to this video that he had made for Tonebase, where 29 concert pianists talk about pedaling. At the beginning Ben Laude said he was the product of 20 years of piano lessons and there was never a lesson on pedaling. So true! It's all excerpts from other Tonebase videos but there should be a little something useful to everyone 🙂

ShiroKuro

twocats Oh cool, thanks for the pedaling video! I'll check it out.

Re pedaling... my digital piano was described as having the ability to "half-pedal," but when I upgraded to an acoustic, I remember thinking "omg, that digital's version of"half pedal" was nothing compared to what you can do with an acoustic!"

Now that I have a grand, I do notice that my piano's pedaling offers the potential for much more "intricacies" than the upright we use in my lesson. And I'm not especially good at subtle pedaling, but even I can tell the difference is significant.

Stub

twocats Thanks for posting the Ben Laude video. Oh, my goodness, you could spend half a lifetime studying pedaling. The "pedal with your ear, not your foot" has been my teacher's mantra of late (and earlier, but it was more than I could process). The pedal is a magic thing.

twocats

ShiroKuro Re pedaling... my digital piano was described as having the ability to "half-pedal," but when I upgraded to an acoustic, I remember thinking "omg, that digital's version of"half pedal" was nothing compared to what you can do with an acoustic!"

I can't tell if what I'm doing is half, or quarter, or maybe even eighth, but I think you just have to respond to what you're hearing!

Maybe my teacher never went into the subtleties of pedaling because all the students had uprights at home anyway and the competition grands were all so different (we all knew and compared notes on the characteristics of the different pianos depending on what room they were in), and it would have been one more thing to think about and didn't make sense at that stage of our learning.

ShiroKuro

twocats I can't tell if what I'm doing is half, or quarter, or maybe even eighth,

I'm pretty sure the digital called it "half-pedal" because that was the only option. IOW full pedal, half pedal, no pedal. But on a grand, esp one like yours, yes, many more fine gradations!

but I think you just have to respond to what you're hearing!

Yep, and this is something that I think a lot of teachers don't go into enough detail about...

twocats

ShiroKuro oh another thing about the teaching, now I remember that my Russian teacher had uprights until she moved into a house. And I'm pretty sure my Polish teacher also had uprights at the studio but now (decades later) he has a very nice Bechstein grand in his house. So there was no point in talking about something they could only demonstrate in a very limited context anyway!

Off topic but it's making me wonder if I should subscribe to Tonebase. I am really enjoying watching the Chopin Podcast when I'm in the kitchen or folding laundry.

Josephine

ShiroKuro I'm pretty sure the digital called it "half-pedal" because that was the only option. IOW full pedal, half pedal, no pedal. But on a grand, esp one like yours, yes, many more fine gradations!

My digital can only do half pedaling indeed. I do use it a lot. I think I play more half pedal than full pedal. I wish I had a grand piano!

It feels like it can do more than half pedaling, and I use it that way, but I'm probably imagining what I want to hear and then hear it. I use it like a gas pedal of a car. A bit more here, a bit less there, gradually.

WieWaldi

ShiroKuro I'm pretty sure the digital called it "half-pedal" because that was the only option. IOW full pedal, half pedal, no pedal. But on a grand, esp one like yours, yes, many more fine gradations!

From a technical standpoint, a digital allows much more fine granular pedaling than an acoustic can ever achieve. It is just not implemented by the manufacturers and probably never will be. It could be better than any acoustic and then it would be regarded as unrealistic. And unrealistic is not good because then it does not mimic a real piano with all its goodies and its flaws.
The pedals as they are currently installed on digitals are only spring loaded and you can't feel the point when the real dampers are lifted. This makes half pedaling maybe more difficult than on an acoustic. But this isn't the burden of digital pianos per se, this is because they are manufactured cost optimized. And as long the masses don't crave for more, there is no market for a more sophisticated pedaling unit.

ShiroKuro

twocats Off topic but it's making me wonder if I should subscribe to Tonebase.

Doesn't @Sam subscribe? IIRC he likes it a lot.

Sam

ShiroKuro twocats Off topic but it's making me wonder if I should subscribe to Tonebase.

Doesn't @Sam subscribe? IIRC he likes it a lot.

Yes, I have a lifetime membership. Highly recommended for those on a classical track - 99% of the content is classical from the standard repertoire.

I am currently watching a livestream Q&A with user submitted questions on Bach. I love the livestreams - a lot like going to a class. Even if I am not that interested in a topic I still watch the livestream. But I am retired. The livestreams are saved and you can watch them later.

And the pre-recorded lessons are all very good. If there is a piece or technique you want help with, there is probably a lesson for it. And they are always adding more content.

I love the "concerts" too - I have played in a few. They are live Zoom calls, and most people play live, although there are usually videos at the end. They are not recorded or saved, so just like a live concert.

And there are forums - not that active, but if you have a question you can get answers.

The level of the players, at least those that participate in the concerts, is very high - I am in the lower percentile...

But whenever someone asks me about Tonebase, I always say sign up for the free trial and see if you like it...

As far as numbers go, it is a very healthy and robust community. The livestream I just watched had 45 attendees. That was at 3PM Eastern time, and the members are all over the world...

And they are starting another platform for theory, harmony, ear training, and so forth. The "Music" platform.

twocats

Sam But whenever someone asks me about Tonebase, I always say sign up for the free trial and see if you like it...

Thanks, Sam! I think I'll do that this summer when I know I have a couple of weeks to really look at the content. Looks like the best deal for a subscription is during Black Friday so if I decide to sign up, I'll probably do it then 🙂

ShiroKuro

Stub The pedal is a magic thing.

It is indeed！

WieWaldi

Stub The "pedal with your ear, not your foot" has been my teacher's mantra of late (and earlier, but it was more than I could process).

I tried it, ain't gonna happen again.

Nono, I continue to pedal with my foot and that's good.

pianoloverus

Pedaling with one's ear just means to listen and evaluate the result. But that doesn't mean lots of specific instructions can't be given and taught or that pedaling shouldn't be written in by the pianist the same way fingering can be notated. All the books on pedaling show page after page with specific pieces and specific pedaling suggestions for those pieces together with verbal discussion. The same goes for countless edited editions with their pedaling suggestions. None of this means there's only one correct or best way to pedal a passage.

PianogrlNW

As for Tonebase - yes it’s worth it. I got an annual subscription for around $140 and it’s a goldmine of information. I participated in a 2 week intensive and I learned a lot. It’s a valuable add-on to your lessons.

As for pedaling, we amateurs don’t change the pedal frequently enough. Whether it’s full, half, quarter pedaling or whatever, it needs to be changed. I’ve played pieces where I was instructed to change the pedal on every 16th or 8th note. Yes, you need to use your ear and change the pedal when there’s a harmonic shift, plus more. When you hear the clarity of a professional pianist, they are changing the pedal frequently. I think the Ben Laude video offers some basic good advice.

twocats

PianogrlNW thank you! 🙂

Jane

A couple of books I've read through:
https://www.amazon.com/Art-Piano-Pedaling-Classic-Guides/dp/048642782X/
https://www.amazon.com/Art-Pedaling-Manual-Piano-Pedals/dp/0486488276

Stub

WieWaldi Good one! 😁

keystring

I've been seeing a lot of posts about "half pedal" - so as I understand it, on one hand, the dampers are completely off the strings allowing them to ring freely - on the other hand, the dampers are completely on the strings stopping the sound - and there are in between stages where the dampers semi-skim the strings allowing a portion of the sound to continue.

My teacher taught me something he called "quick pedal". It's a rapid touch, where the damper sort of does a quick bounce or rebound, so that part of the sound is cut off and part remains. I haven't seen this discussed. Actually I don't think I've seen it described anywhere. It is something we can do on all kinds of pianos including the better digital ones. I don't know if this "quick touch" has an official name.

We discussed the "dampers barely skimming the strings" (half pedal) idea. He pointed out that you need a quite good piano, and the pedal mechanism of that very good piano also should be very well calibrated at the time that you play it. Thus that it's a riskier and less reliable proposition.

Interested in impressions or thoughts. 🙂

twocats

keystring My teacher taught me something he called "quick pedal". It's a rapid touch, where the damper sort of does a quick bounce or rebound, so that part of the sound is cut off and part remains. I haven't seen this discussed.

I'm not sure what this means, a single quick touch or "flutter pedal" with many quick touches?

WieWaldi

keystring My teacher taught me something he called "quick pedal". It's a rapid touch, where the damper sort of does a quick bounce or rebound, so that part of the sound is cut off and part remains. I haven't seen this discussed. Actually I don't think I've seen it described anywhere. It is something we can do on all kinds of pianos including the better digital ones. I don't know if this "quick touch" has an official name.

Thank you, keystring. This is a very good point. Someone (I think it was @BartK ) mentioned, many pianists get used to the habit to quickly release the pedal than then immediately press it again at a chord change. And he said this is bad habit, because that short lifting does not fully dampen the strings, especially on the lower tones.
I never thought about using this effect as pedaling technique, when used intentionally. Still, I think it might be difficult to control the amount of dampening, so it can happen in some too abrupt sound-offs.

Btw: my cheap-ish digital Kawai emulates this behavior very well. And it does a proper simulation of string resonances. Good job, Kawai ❤️

Jane

keystring My teacher taught me something he called "quick pedal". It's a rapid touch, where the damper sort of does a quick bounce or rebound, so that part of the sound is cut off and part remains.

I think what you're describing is what many people call "re-pedal".

And some digital piano libraries do support it, for example the Modern D from VI Labs.

keystring

twocats I'm not sure what this means, a single quick touch or "flutter pedal" with many quick touches?

I still have to vet this with my teacher. I learned of it a number of years ago and haven't tried it since - this is my unvetted and unpractised attempt at the idea as I presently understand it. You get part of the sound continuing. I'm sending this to my teacher and he can tell me whether I'm on or off track.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/imkmuoqpfwibfyw8zupqf/25.04.16a-quick-pedal.mp3?rlkey=501lo9cgt42xc1sx0v2pyj4ra&st=wt44v9xn&dl=0

In the meantime, could you, or someone, create a sample of half pedal, maybe with equally simple (or same) music - part of a single note scale, a series of diatonic chords? I'd liked to know what that is supposed to sound like.

(I have a digital, but hybrid piano - Kawai CA 97)

twocats

keystring You get part of the sound continuing.

Did your teacher say when to best use this effect?

keystring In the meantime, could you, or someone, create a sample of half pedal

Next time I'm on the piano I can record samples of the beginning of the Fantasie-Impromptu with full and lighter pedal.

With chords, less pedal would just be less resonance (which can be a musical choice, sometimes I apply pedal even if not technically needed just to get more resonance). But when you have runs it allows some sustain without it turning into a big muddy mess.

WieWaldi

keystring In the meantime, could you, or someone, create a sample of half pedal...

Currently away from my (digital) piano so I can't record it. But I remember, when I do half pedaling, the tone rings out in a quite short time period. Let's say something between 2 and 5 seconds.

iternabe

keystring In the meantime, could you, or someone, create a sample of half pedal, maybe with equally simple (or same) music - part of a single note scale, a series of diatonic chords? I'd liked to know what that is supposed to sound like.

(I have a digital, but hybrid piano - Kawai CA 97)

Sorry if my following comment is veering towards technical instead of artistic. This discussion of pedal feel of DP vs acoustic reminded me of a wonderful post by @MRC.

I looked up Kawai CA97. It has the F-302 Grand Feel pedal board which is a self-enclosed pedal unit quite similar to the GFP-3 pedal that came with my MP11SE. But it's nothing like in a true hybrid like NV-10S where the pedal actually is mechanically pushing up real dampers to give the graded and non-linear feel. Based on this thread on PW, F-302 and GFP-3 feels quite similar. My GFP-3 has good resistance, operates smoothly, and each of the 3 pedals is graded with different weight. But it does not have that distinct feel of engagement zone.

Personally, I feel "half pedal" capability for a DP something of a misnomer. It can be misunderstood as if the pedal has 3 states: down, half down, and up. In reality, the cheap DP pedals have two states: down, and up, while better pedals support continuous variation from fully down to fully up. This can easily be visualized the live pedal curve display in Pianoteq, and the effect heard clearly (assuming Pianoteq is modeling it correctly).