Fast and even - again

pianoloverus

Animisha I had once started a 'Fast and Even' thread on the monetised forum. Now, finding myself in the same situation again, I went back to that old thread.

One of the advices given there was to play long-short, and then short-long.
Bart added to that advice: "... you have to understand why it works and many people don't. The point of it is to play the short notes as fast as possible and use the long notes as rest points for the hand to relax completely. If you play the rhythm sloppily and the fast notes are not really the fastest you can possibly go then you will not get as much benefit from that exercise."

I expanded on this, and found that it worked very well: short-short-long.
Let us say that you need to play a scalar run based on D major. You play D E F# as fast and even as you can, and you relax while staying on F#. Next, you play E F# G as fast and even as you can, and you relax on G. Continue with F# G A, then G A B, etc.
I find that this exercise really adds something to the long-short or short-long exercise, especially because for the thumb crossings, but also for the black keys.

This is an almost universally accepted way to improve something like 16th note runs. I'm not sure if the reasons why it works are agreed upon or if Bart's suggestion is important. I once started a lengthy thread piano world about why this rhythmic works and got a huge variety of answers and no general agreement. But the bottom line seems to be that it does work for many people. The additional variations you suggested like short, short, long or short, short, short, long also make sense and are commonly employed. Another possible but different technique would be what sometimes called chaining. In other words, play for example 4 fast notes several times and then the next 4 fast notes and then try putting the two groups of four fast notes together into eight fast notes.

Josephine

pianoloverus

I think it works because your brain can have a short break after a few notes. So there's a smaller chance you get confused. Changing the pattern makes sure you also learn to connect the other notes fast, where the break previously happend.

Sophia

Animisha One of the advices given there was to play long-short, and then short-long.

Yup, having lived with professional musicians all my life, I can absolutely say that this is how (the) professionals (that I know) do indeed practise 😃 I keep telling myself that I should start the habit - because obviously it works - but.... I'm just a (bloody) beginner with a hobby to enjoy, so most of the time I prefer to have fun with my piano. Sue me 😂

Edit: and yes, as you both pointed out, variations on that theme work too. Also, let me add that it is exceptionally boring to listen to someone butcher a piece for hours on end just to get it stored into their muscle memory 😋

BartK

Animisha I expanded on this, and found that it worked very well: short-short-long.
Let us say that you need to play a scalar run based on D major. You play D E F# as fast and even as you can, and you relax while staying on F#. Next, you play E F# G as fast and even as you can, and you relax on G. Continue with F# G A, then G A B, etc.
I find that this exercise really adds something to the long-short or short-long exercise, especially because for the thumb crossings, but also for the black keys.

Yes. When I practice something really difficult I basically extend this even further and do all the sequences of 2, 3, 4, and 5 notes starting on every note of the passage, except I practice each little run several times in a row before doing the next one. It's quite tedious but it works.

pianoloverus

Josephine I think it works because your brain can have a short break after a few notes. So there's a smaller chance you get confused.

Confused about what?

Although what the benefits practicing in rhythms are do not seem to be always agreed upon just like the reason(s) why practicing in rhythms work for many people are not always agreed upon, I think most people use practicing in rhythms on fairly lengthy passages of, or example, 16th notes. The kind of passages that are often found in Mozart or Bach would be typical examples. Of course, if you find rhythmic practice useful on very short passages, there's no reason not to continue using it. I just don't think that's the most common way to employ practicing in rhythms.

Josephine

pianoloverus Confused about what?

I had a fast run in my mind like this

If I had to practice that complete section faster at once I would stumble. But a few fast notes is possible. My brain can do that without getting confused.

But maybe I didn't understand the topic completely.

Edit: yes, I think I didn't read the topic well. Forget what I posted.

pianoloverus

Josephine I had a fast run in my mind like this

If I had to practice that complete section faster at once I would stumble. But a few fast notes is possible. My brain can do that without getting confused.
;:

For that particular passage I would approach it in the following way:

First identify the two long chromatic scales within that passage
Mark in the fingering on more of the notes where the fingering isn't marked so that one doesn't have to think about which finger to use.

That's just what I would do which doesn't mean it's the best approach for everyone.

Animisha

Josephine But maybe I didn't understand the topic completely.

Edit: yes, I think I didn't read the topic well. Forget what I posted.

No, it would be very interesting to use this method also on a complicated fast run!

Josephine

pianoloverus

I'm a memorizer, so I think I would memorize the right hand of the entire passage first, then play it super slow together with the left hand to see where the right hand notes should be played. And then I don't know yet how to get it up to speed. 😄
I'll give it a try just for fun. I want to learn the first page.

pseudonym58

I always tell my cello students to use the long-short/short-long method for practicing scale- and arpeggio-like passages. I tell them that one way will be easier and one way will be harder. Practice the harder one even if you have to do it very slowly to get it very even.
Almost all of them report success with that method (I use it routinely on both cello and piano).

Josephine

Animisha

Maybe it wasn't the best example, I was reading the sheetmusic of that piece while listening to it, so that's why I thought of it, but I never played it.

I like to use snippets of pieces as exercises. I did use the method a while ago to learn the short section from 1:33 to 1:58 minutes in this video of Zimerman.

Josephine

I was just practicing, and one thing I also do next to short-long is legato-staccato. The whole section legato and staccato but also short parts of a few notes.

pianoloverus

There are numerous ways to practice passages for speed and evenness. Rhythmic practice is usually done on fairly long passages but some people find it useful on just a few notes. I think the real question one needs to ask oneself is if the passage is improving because of the particular type of practicing(and why that particular type of practice helps) or just improving because one is playing the passage more times. In other words, improvement in a passage may or may not have anything to do with the type practicing one does on that passage.

rsl12

I just want to say thanks to everyone for what is a timely discussion for me. I'm working through some passages that require fast and even playing for the upcoming PT recital (only a few weeks left!). I had already been employing slow & fast/fast & slow, but Animisha's idea of doing longer runs was new to me, as was Bart's assertion that one should play the fast part of the rhythm as fast as possible. I am trying to employ both. It's been a while since my left 4th finger has had so much demanded of it!