twocats My friend said once you transition to memorized it's a different part of your brain and you can't really go back to the score.

This was my experience.... I would memorize something, maybe play it in a recital or something, and then let it slip from my fingers..... Then, some time later, when I tried to bring it back, it felt like I had to learn it all over again, like I'd never seen it before.

When I have a piece that I polish (and perform) from the score, in which I play it from the score always, if I put it away and come back to it, the time and effort to get it back is so, so much less! So that was what I mean above by saying that not memorizing helps me have a larger playable repertoire.

I suspect the real problem is that, with a piece that was previously memorized and then forgotten, there's probably something I need to do differently to bring it back, and I don't know what that is.

But like you, I'm a good sightreader and it feels so much easier and more efficient to just keep the score....

But it's been a long time since I memorized anything, maybe I have evolved (we can always dream! 😛

The other thing is that probably, with a piece that's been memorized, we maybe could return to the score before putting the piece away and letting it slip from our fingers... Dunno, never tried that!

Anyway, if I pick a vegetable -- I mean score, to memorize, I'll let you know. I guess it depends on how lazy I am! 😃

    Simonb oh gosh I don't even know where to start! I had to take music theory for RCM but it was decades ago.

    I can easily recognize a major or minor chord or a diminished 7th but putting it in context of the key signature especially if it's "unconventional" just seems overwhelming. I think with the Chopin there's so much going on that at least if I can recognize the starting chord for a phrase I will reduce my chances of blanking out and getting lost.

    Simonb I strongly recommend studying chords (Chordal analysis as your friend describes it).

    I know I need to do this.... I've tried studying music theory on my own, using those random books (like Alfred's music theory course) and there's so much to wade through, a lot of which I sort of half know, that I get bogged down and drift away from it....

    I also tried having lessons with jazz teachers, my intention being to get a better grasp on chord theory, but both teachers I worked with were a bad fit for me (that's a topic for another thread). And so I reverted to what I know, playing from a score with teachers who take a traditional (classical-esque) approach. And obviously my playing has continued to improve over the years, so it's not like what I'm doing is bad, but there's still that hole in my playing and in my knowledge....

    I feel like I need a very special kind of teacher, like maybe someone trained to teach jazz to classical players or something?

    Sigh....

      ShiroKuro Anyway, if I pick a vegetable -- I mean score, to memorize, I'll let you know. I guess it depends on how lazy I am! 😃

      Hah!

      I do wonder if the idea that memorization lets you put more of yourself into it, or more emotion, or whatever, is true? If you listened to a recording, would you be able to tell if the piece was memorized or not? Same for live performances. Is the audience imputing more emotion to the playing when they see an empty music desk, when no difference actually exists?

      Whether to memorize of not is certainly a personal preference. My gut feeling is that if you have to talk yourself into it, it's probably not for you.

        Stub I do wonder if the idea that memorization lets you put more of yourself into it, or more emotion, or whatever, is true?

        I think I would access the piece differently in my brain, I did have to memorize everything as a kid for competitions and exams so I kind-of remember what it's like. I will try it and see where it goes. I do that the Chopin Ballade 2 would benefit from being memorized (on an emotional level) and it doesn't seem as daunting as others, so it's a good candidate! My friend didn't think the Bach would be as good an option and I agreed.

        Stub I do wonder if the idea that memorization lets you put more of yourself into it, or more emotion, or whatever, is true?

        I suspect this is something that each of us probably needs to experiment with, and over years of playing, it might change...

        Just speaking for myself, on the one hand, I think for most of the pieces I play, playing from the score is not a detriment to my potential for expressive playing...

        On the other hand, I think there are pieces that I would have done better with had I memorized them (September Song by Alexis Ffrench comes to mind...)

        One reason, and I'm just totally thinking out loud here.... with a more challenging piece, I notice that I often have trouble at the page turn.... even though I use a Bluetooth foot pedal... But just having to move my foot and turn the page often adds a little cognitive burden.... Probably we could say that means I haven't fully learned or polished the piece, so I guess the question is, would memorizing the piece be that last little push past those kinds of lingering issues?

        Dunno....

        twocats I found the video that Josephine suggested, if anyone else wants to check it out!

        I have to do PT this morning so listening to this video as I do my exercises! Will report back 🙂

          Hi ShiroKuro

          I taught myself, as when I started doing it, there was no internet, and I couldn't afford (and was too scared!) to find a teacher. It's not as daunting as you might think, and once you get the ball rolling it's immensely satisfying.

          I remember the first chord I worked out, which was an F major chord F A C. I never used instruction books, I'd just pick a song then look at the sheet music and the chord symbol above or below, and work out why that chord symbol was what it was. Starting very simply and gradually getting more complex as time went on. It also started my uphill struggle with learning to improvise.

          In the 1980s and 2000s I did have lessons with professional Jazz Pianists, and whilst I found this beneficial in the end the work I did on my own is still the foundation of how I play and read to this day.

          Which is not to say I'm anything special; I'm most certainly very average, but I'd be a much lesser musician without that work that I put in all those years ago.

          Cheers

          Simon
          All round average Jazz, Blues & Rock player.
          Currently working towards ABRSM grade 8.

            Simonb I taught myself, as when I started doing it, there was no internet, and I couldn't afford (and was too scared!) to find a teacher. It's not as daunting as you might think, and once you get the ball rolling it's immensely satisfying.

            I have a lot of respect for people who can be successful in a self-taught way!

            I have never been one to find success in a self-taught or self-guided venture... I need a syllabus, I need a teacher or a coach... Although it's been years since I looked at my music theory books, maybe now is a good time to take another look...

            twocats listening to this video as I do my exercises! Will report back 🙂

            Ok, he's memorizing a piece he's never even ever heard for the video. These are the techniques he's developed for himself and that he teaches to his students.

            He always memorizes hands separately because it's easier for the brain. @ShiroKuro he says it makes it far easier to recover a piece when he comes back to it in the future!

            He does it small phrases at a time (just a few bars), closes the book, plays it in his head, makes mental notes. Sometimes he plays it different ways or with both hands (just for right hand part).

            He says to learn it properly you need to "forget it a few times" and relearn it, and then it'll be deeper in your memory. He says he tries to artificially forget it to speed up the process, I'm not sure what that means.

            Now he's playing a phrase without the piano (with the fallboard closed), saying the chords out loud.

            If he forgets a spot he tries to recall it from his memory before he looks at the score, he says that makes it commit deeper into his memory.

            He's playing RH from the beginning from memory, he says sometimes it helps to close his eyes.

            He says he memorizes a whole piece hands separately, up to speed, with phrasing, basically performance level hands separately. And then when he puts it together it's much easier. He says the first time you do it it'll take much longer and be difficult but it gets easier.

            Can't hurt to try this!

              twocats Can't hurt to try this!

              Yes it can, my brain hurts just reading it!!! 😆

              Joking aside... what he's doing sounds very, very hard! I almost never play/practice HS and so much of the time, fingering and other gestures on one hand are partly determined by what the other hand is doing.... And then my memory of music (by which I mean, playing music, even when I'm playing from a score) is clearly based at least in part by the two hands together.... So I'm super interested that he's doing this HS approach!

              Ugh, where's the "memorization for mortals" video?? 😅

                ShiroKuro I think your preferred kind of music is very difficult to play hands separately because it doesn't really make sense. Maybe ignore that part of the advice but try the other parts 🙂

                  twocats I think your preferred kind of music is very difficult to play hands separately because it doesn't really make sense.

                  Ok this makes me feel better..... And maybe I should have thought of that myself!! 😆

                  One can memorize a piece but still choose to have the score on the music desk when playing it. This avoids the fear of memory problems and would offer some of the supposed benefits of memorization.

                  On the other hand, for most people and most pieces I think memorization is not a good idea because it takes so much time that could be MUCH better spent learning a LOT more repertoire. When I used to play Christmas programs at a senior center, ftaer doing it for quite a few years I had at least 100 pages of pretty advanced music I could play Which was at least five times as much as I could have memorized even if I spent all the time learning those hundred pages just on the 20 pages. Memorizing a few pieces is at least reasonable but I think it's a serious mistake to memorize most or even many of your pieces unless you're a professional where it may be required.

                  twocats I’ve got a long reply; hopefully it’s useful. When I was a kid, I didn’t find memorization ‘difficult,’ per se, but I did find memorization problematic. The pieces that I was asked to memorize, I felt like by the time I got to the point that I needed to memorize them, I could play much of them from memory. But I didn’t have fantastic security in my memorization. To this day, I have nightmares of bad memory lapses during performances, and I was always more comfortable with the score.

                  Fast forward to resuming piano as an adult, it was very pleasant to realize that the technological advances of tablets and page turning devices really meant that I could use the score and not have to worry about clunky page turns, or multiple sheets that could have issues on the music stand, and so performance with the sheet music in front of me was not a big deal. In general, I haven’t put effort into memorizing things, and I feel this in many ways gives me more freedom, as I don’t have the mental anxiety of worrying about a memory lapse.

                  I did memorize the last piece that I submitted for a PT recital, but this was the exception. I ended up deciding to memorize it because I realized it had kind of memorized itself. The piece had a number of technical challenges for me, but I think musically it was more straightforward than a lot of things I have worked on recently. I think this was the reason I absorbed it. Even so, I think the biggest issue with the performance was ultimately an issue related to memory. Do I think memorizing it made me feel more free in my playing? Not really. But it wasn’t a big deal to memorize it, although the memorization was also imperfect.

                  This takes me to my current project, which is another 20th century piece. It’s got a few spots that I’ve found particularly troublesome to learn. There’s one particular spot that’s just 6 measures, but I spent several weeks on it, trying different practice techniques, and it was giving me no end of trouble to learn. I don’t think this was for particularly technical reasons, but the passage is on the way to being atonal, if not fully there, and I just felt like I was spending a lot of time on it without much progress. My teacher had suggested a few things and I was still struggling. At my last lesson, he suggested that I work on memorizing it, and he gave me some suggestions for how to work on memorization. And I’ve implemented this, and the passage is finally coming together.

                  He had some very concrete recommendations for approaching memorization. 1. Work on small chunks — maybe a few measures. 2. Start with the music, then try to play from memory, then go back to the music and read through the phrase. Continue this (alternating between memory and the music) until every note in the small section is memorized. Then expand the section or work on the next section, but always alternate between reading the sheet music and memorization (I think this will actually help to not have the problem of feeling that you can’t continue to work both from the sheet music and from memory, which others have described). 3. There are several aspects to memory, and each is important. They include a. Visual memory — both the visual memory of the notes on the score and the visual memory of the appearance of the phrase on the keyboard (what does it look like your hands are doing?) b. Kinetic memory — how are you moving between notes/chords? C. Aural memory - how the phrase sounds; my notes from the lesson say “hear the ‘song’ of the phrase,” d. Conceptual memory - what is the structure of the music? Chord progression, etc. my lesson notes are, “ it is Impossible to memorize without understanding a phrase” and “Transitions can be perilous; it is important to understand these.” And finally e. Technical memory. Lesson notes: “technical failures often causes memory slips.” Make sure you are technically secure. As you memorize a section, you need to pay attention to each of these things and memorize each of these aspects.

                  The recommendation was also that if you are planning to work on memorizing a piece in its entirety, it is beneficial to do so from the beginning so that you incorporate all aspects of memorization before the purely kinetic memory sets it (and you will be over-reliant on ‘muscle memory’). He also recommended memorizing hands together as much as possible.

                  Anyways, I’m not really planning on attempting to memorize a whole piece, but working on specific tricky passages in this way, I did actually find that I made more progress than anything else I had been doing. And while it is somewhat time-consuming, I think if I were to approach an entire piece this way, it would be an approach that would help me simultaneously learn and memorize the piece in a way that felt secure.

                    I agree with pianoloverus. I hate memorizing sheet music, and the only practical reason to do so is if a piano randomly appears and I am without my documents.

                    Here's a nice article that makes the point that I'm too lazy to make myself.

                    The growing taste for watching soloists play from memory has actually narrowed the breadth of the repertoire. Vladimir Horowitz, for example, played a huge number of works at home from the score, but only performed a small repertoire from memory in public. Today many soloists won't commit themselves to more than a handful of works each season, no doubt partly because of the burden of memorisation. In the past few years, I've successfully memorised several solo recital programmes, each lasting about two hours. Had I allowed myself to use music, I could have performed the programmes much earlier, and with equal interpretative power. It was the sheer effort of memorising that added months to the process.

                    Since every single one of my pianoworld/pianotell recitals has been performed without sheet music, maybe I should say a little more.

                    • most of my recitals have been jazz, which means memorizing a lead sheet, which is almost always not too much effort.
                    • Modern Major General was simple enough to understand as a soprano line over chords. So basically the same as a lead sheet. In general, that kind of analysis doesn't work for the sheet music I play.
                      *Sleigh Ride in 7/8: okay, I admit I thought it would look nicer and more performative without the music. But the effort was great. I had to do 40 takes because I kept messing up the end. That was 2018 me, and 2025 me disagrees with his decision.

                    For for many pianists, including professionals, I think the fear of memory slips more than outweighs any other supposed advantages of playing from memory. If it was not considered a semi requirement for professionals to play recitals from memory, I think many of them, even if they had memorized the music, Would choose to have a tablet with the score on the music desk for the sake of security And there are the other disadvantages of playing from memory in particular the inordinate amount of time it takes that could be used to learn more repertoire.

                    twocats I have not read all other answers that you have got, but if you are interested in finding out for yourself if your friend is correct, I would test it. Start with a short piece of your level - or maybe even memorise only half of the piece, and find out for yourself.
                    For a very short time I had a teacher who demanded memorisation, so I did try it. For me, it adds absolutely nothing. The piece did not become a part of me. When recording the piece, there are already so many things to think about, and adding to that the stress that I would not remember correctly, did not do my performance any good. However, maybe I should have spent even more time on that piece... (which would make me progress even slower...)

                    About your comparison: Always having the score is like driving home by way of a very complicated route, and knowing that you can glance at your GPS whenever you need to.

                    *
                    ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...