Memorization (when you hate it)

Josephine I think the nice thing about memorizing is that you can focus completely on listening to the tone of your playing when you are practicing.

You can also listen to the tone of your playing while reading the music. When practising over days, refining your music, the "reading" isn't the same as at first anyway. It's more like road signs along an already familiar street.

I memorize some passages especially if I want to pay attention to what my hands & arms/body are doing because the physical technical part of my playing is behind. What I find is that the written music also takes on additional dimensions. In both cases there is a synergy.

keystring It's more like road signs along an already familiar street.

So then it's more or less memorized right?
I do read the melody of music sometimes while checking if I got the dynamics right, if I didn't forget anything. But most of the time I don't look at it.

Josephine So then it's more or less memorized right?
I do read the melody of music sometimes while checking if I got the dynamics right, if I didn't forget anything. But most of the time I don't look at it.

When I first play from the score it is not memorized, ofc, but I still hear a fair bit from the page. When you read words, do you also sort of hear them?

Josephine keystring It's more like road signs along an already familiar street.

So then it's more or less memorized right?

This has always been an interesting question to me, because I actively read while playing, starting many years ago when I started making a conscious effort to play from the score, even with polished pieces. I became very good a "read-playing," a skill I utilize to this day. Although I draw a sharp distinction (for myself, in my own practice) between sightreading (prima vista) and read-playing, it's clear to me that my approach to read-playing really helped my sightreading, and my strength in sightreading makes it easy for me read-play....

All that to say, when I'm playing and reading the score, I am actively looking at the notes, even with a polished piece. But at the same time, I know I'm not truly doing a "close reading" the way you would with a piece you've never played or only played a few times.

So obviously, there's a good bit that's memorized. But it's also not "memorized," because I can't play without the score.

I think for people who don't memorize, this kind of reading must be different from the way memorizers read, and also the memory we have of pieces we know well, but play from the score, is also somehow different from a memorizer's "memorized piece."

if that makes sense?

I'm curious what other habitual readers, like @twocats , think about this.

keystring Josephine I think the nice thing about memorizing is that you can focus completely on listening to the tone of your playing when you are practicing.

You can also listen to the tone of your playing while reading the music.

One other thing about this.... not to muddy the waters... but, there are various "cognitive burdens" when playing. And different people will experience those burdens to a greater or lesser degree... We can all (and should!) train ourselves to listen while playing, whether reading or not.

But if we're reading while playing, there is necessarily going to be some amount of "cognitive burden," some amount or our attention taken up from reading, even for comfortable readers. So I think one key point of this thread (not to put words into @twocats 's mouth)... is that, for those of us who are habitual readers, what can we gain from memorizing. And I think this idea that, if we memorize and are therefore not reading the score, we will be freed up, our attention will be freed up, to focus more on other things... so it's not that we're not listening to tone while reading, but the idea anyway, is that we could listen more closely or fully if we memorize....

Now, having said all that.... since I am a comfortable reader and I almost never memorize, it might be the case that my ability to listen could actually be diminished when I'm trying to play from memory, because the cognitive burden of memorizing will be so much higher for me, compared to when I'm reading...

This of course is something to experiment with (in the spirit of MG), and is unlikely to be the same from one pianist to the next....

keystring When you read words, do you also sort of hear them?

No, actually, I don't think I do. Not in either of my reading languages (English and Japanese).

And I don't hear music from the score. If I tap my finger, I can hear the rhythm (because I'm tapping it of course). But I don't hear notes or pitch unless I start to play.

So I guess not only do I not play by ear, but I also can't "read by ear" either.

twocats Actually I think having the score removes that cognitive burden for me! I literally don't have to think about a piece that's not difficult to read

Yep, I think this is the same for me.... So I don't think we're "lazy" when it comes to memorizing, but it just feels so much harder than reader, that there's a big disincentive!

I wrote today before reading the whole thread which I usually try no to do. I was initially reacting to the idea that when music is memorized one can focus on the tone, but if one is reading one cannot, or less so. I have seen similar things, where folks say you can't play fully expressively until it is memorized. I think these things are subjective because we experience and live music differently. That is what I was trying to get at.

ShiroKuro Now, having said all that.... since I am a comfortable reader and I almost never memorize, it might be the case that my ability to listen could actually be diminished when I'm trying to play from memory, because the cognitive burden of memorizing will be so much higher for me, compared to when I'm reading...

This actually goes to what I was thinking in regard to subjective experiences. That has also happened to me - I can relate. I like the term "cognitive burden" which you wrote in an earlier paragraph. I'm also thinking at this moment about associations that trigger things.

twocats I think for me learning a score is essentially getting it into my "finger memory" so that I don't have to struggle.

This also reminded me of some things. I became aware some time ago that I have no hand awareness, no finger awareness. Someone told me that when they read a score, they see the piano and they see their hand on the piano carrying out the motions. I see ..... nothing. Since becoming aware of this, I have thought it might be good to build this, because it might create a greater level of physical certainty to my playing.

ShiroKuro No, actually, I don't think I do. Not in either of my reading languages (English and Japanese).

And I'm thinking about my own question. I know that when I read your words, I heard them, but then maybe I didn't because I read faster than a person can speak. And there's an experience across languages when it seemed I must think in pictures.

The reason I asked, however, because if people did hear the words they read, it might have helped understand how I originally processed written music.

To the last: My first taught experience was a 2nd grade teacher having us sing while she pointed to a solfege board. I internalized the major scale and natural minor scale, which in that system started on La. At age 8 I was given a little organ, and a book for adult learners - it was very diatonic (so same system) and for the most part in C major and A minor. I associated the notation with the aural patterns I'd learned. Thus a diagonal set of notes going line-space-line-space etc. described a scale, and "sounded like" a major scale. I "heard" that major scale from the page, and then played on the organ what I heard from the page. This "hearing" was in relative pitch, but I also knew where to find Do (usually C, or F, or G).

Later I was given a piano and a bit of music, especially a set of sonatinas - above all Clementi who is predictable, but all the music was pretty well diatonic. I stayed in my solfege world, and I kept hearing the music off the page. I thought everyone read music this way. As an adult I brought a song I loved to my violin teacher, and I didn't know why he brought it to the piano to find out how it sounded. Because I "heard it from the page".

I can also get confused by visual symmetry; what makes dyslexics confuse p b q d and cat vs tac but learned that later. I played in a tactile way, feeling for where the sound was.. When I first tried to look at my hands for technique I got confused by the symmetry of the keys and had to look away. So this thing people have, just wasn't there.

Otoh, there are people who can hear from the page in a way I can't. Chords and chord qualities aren't there much. I know someone who looks at a page and says "This part doesn't sound good." But that person also feels in their fingers what they see on the page.

This is OT to the topic, but goes to hearing and reading maybe.

twocats By finger memory, I don't mean that I see my fingers in my mind, but that my fingers learn the patterns of the music and are able to play easily and automatically (as one does once the music is "learned").

I might have that. (?)

This discussion is getting quite interesting, @twocats and @keystring !!

So, I think I do have finger awareness.... like, I can see the keyboard in my mind, and my fingers....

I think I am very visual and very text-based... I read Japanese (character writing) and I am a pretty fast reader in Japanese even though it's my second language. And I learned how to read in Japanese before I started playing piano (I started learning piano after I moved to Japan)....

Anyway, I think as a student, and now as an academic, and in my hobby life as a pianist, I am very visual in terms of how I learn, how I remember... for example, if I read a physical book, I can remember where in the book a particular word was. IOW, was it on the left or right side page, how far down the page, how far into the book, that kind of thing... That's sort of visual, sort of spatial I guess...

So I think I have a very developed "mind's eye" and I am very good at getting information from visual codes, including English, Japanese, and musical notation (I also used to sign ASL and speak and read Korean, though I've mostly forgotten both)

But I don't have a good "mind's ear." When I played guitar, I could tune my guitar (using a tuner though) and I used to sing a lot.... IOW, I have a good enough sense of relative pitch. But I can't sightsing, and I don't "hear" music just from looking at a score....

Just rambling now though...

Oh and to the earlier point, I don't "hear" when I read written language, I know that my reading is much faster than it would be if I was hearing spoken word in my head....

thepianoplayer416 An ear training exercise from Muso Academy in Australia. Students would listen to a phrase played by a teacher and repeat it.... Don’t know if people with perfect pitch are also good at remembering music.

Back before I dropped out of music school, they would do this sort of exercise in aural skills (ear training) class! Perfect pitch certainly helps (not sure what part of the video challenge was supposed to be "crazy"), but they often threw in a twist to make it harder for us: They would say e.g. "I am starting on C#" but then actually start playing on C. People with relative pitch were fine, but I would have to either transpose in my head on the fly ("ok that's a C, up half a step, write C# on the staff"), or occasionally I was lucky enough to brainwash my perfect pitch into believing the C was actually a C# (kind of like unfocusing your eyes deliberately but with your brain lol).