Memorization (when you hate it)

twocats

My friend, a very good pianist, is encouraging me to start memorizing some of my pieces. His teacher says it opens up another dimension to your playing because the piece becomes a part of you. I feel like part of my identity is that I hate memorizing. I'm not good at it and it scares me, and I love that as an adult I don't have to do it anymore. It seems like so much extra work and I'm scared of memorizing stuff wrong and I love the safety of the page.

But I also recognize the truth in what he said. Always having the score is like always having the GPS and not knowing how to get home from work even though you've driven the route hundreds of times. He thinks it'll end up giving me a lot more freedom.

Has anyone else been through this? I think I'll start with just one piece where there are big jumps so I have to look down anyway. It seems like a good candidate.

Josephine

Greg Niemczuk has a good video on memorizing. Maybe that's helpful.

Simonb

Hi twocats

I used to think that the only way I could only play a piece correctly was if I had it memorised. But this simply isn't true. In fact what you've said can happen; you memorise it incorrectly.

For example I've been playing Maple Leaf Rag for decades. Indeed I learnt the first page when I was still a growing lad (50+ years ago). When I restarted classical lessons in December 2022, I decided that MLR would be a good choice for my grade 7 exam. When I played it to my teacher she immediately pointed out rhythmic mistakes that I was making where my interpretation of the sheet music was inaccurate. And had been for decades!

If you can memorise then do so. But if you waste hours and hours perfecting one piece just so that you can play it from memory, I'm not sure that's a good use of your time. Those hours could be better spent on improving your reading, practising technique things etc etc. And if it takes that long to memorise something you'll probably be sick of it by then anyway!

Also it's worth saying that as you get older (I have no idea of your age) memorising gets more difficult. I no longer bother to try. If it happens it's a bonus, but for my classical playing I'll always have the music in front of me, whether I need it or not.

I certainly advocate trying to get away from relying on sheet music, but for me this is something that happens in my non-classical playing where I play from chords, or lead sheets, or if I'm playing blues nothing at all.

What your friend says, or what I say, is great in theory. In practise take no notice and do what works well for you!

Cheers

ShiroKuro

@twocats I pretty much ever memorize. I made the decision long ago, because I found that there were a lot of benefits from not memorizing. I found that my reading improved, I could have more pieces in my playable repertoire and it was easier to “bring back” previously polished pieces if I forced myself to always play from the score. To say nothing of the fact that playing from the score means I don’t have a memory slips when performing. So I almost never memorize, and mostly that works for me.

But in my day job, I’m a uni prof and one of my jobs is to teach grad students about how to teach foreign languages. So I read a lot about pedagogical science etc. and so I know that there all kinds of cognitive and learning benefits to memorization. So every now and then, I get it in my head that I should memorize something. To me, it’s like eating your vegetables, something you do more because it’s good for you than because you want to. 😅

Having said that, it’s been along time since I’ve memorized anything…. I think the last time was when I was piano shopping, I memorized a few pieces so I could play without the score, so that would be over five years ago now….

Hmm… maybe I should memorize in solidatry with you, @twocats 😆

ShiroKuro

@twocats back to your main point… I think you absolutely will benefit from memorizing something, even if you don’t ultimately play/perform it from memory.

The trick, to my mind, is to memorize something, and then be able to go back to reading it from the score, and I have found that surprisingly difficult.

The only other thing I would say to you is, starting with a piece that has big jumps is fine of course, but I would suggest you start with something that is on the short side, and maybe that has some very distinct sections. This should make it easier to memorize than a longer piece with a bunch of sections that are almost but not quite the same…

twocats

Josephine Greg Niemczuk has a good video on memorizing.

I'll look for it!

Simonb In fact what you've said can happen; you memorise it incorrectly.

That's a fear of mine!

Simonb I certainly advocate trying to get away from relying on sheet music, but for me this is something that happens in my non-classical playing where I play from chords, or lead sheets, or if I'm playing blues nothing at all.

I'm a good sight reader and I think I use it as a crutch. There are pieces that I can play well but if you asked I probably don't even know what note it starts on! I can't play by ear at all. My friend has a degree in piano performance and his current teacher (many years later) is having him do chordal analysis etc. Honestly that sounds like difficult homework that I just don't want to do; figuring out my fingerings and phrasings is already enough work! But I can at least know what chords I am starting on for a phrase, instead of blindly being on autopilot.

ShiroKuro To me, it’s like eating your vegetables, something you do more because it’s good for you than because you want to. 😅

I just made a similar comment to my husband last night 😂

ShiroKuro I think you absolutely will benefit from memorizing something, even if you don’t ultimately play/perform it from memory.

The trick, to my mind, is to memorize something, and then be able to go back to reading it from the score, and I have found that surprisingly difficult.

The only other thing I would say to you is, starting with a piece that has big jumps is fine of course, but I would suggest you start with something that is on the short side, and maybe that has some very distinct sections. This should make it easier to memorize than a longer piece with a bunch of sections that are almost but not quite the same…

My friend said once you transition to memorized it's a different part of your brain and you can't really go back to the score. Actually I should mention, he's the one who originally told me about Dr. Molly! He showed me the layers he has in forScore where he has marked "chunks" to learn and he uses her schedule to learn them, and then after he's learned it he pulls a number out of his hat and then has to randomly play that chunk. I used to think "he's so good at memorizing" but he clearly puts a ton of work into it and doing the practice the right way.

I'm thinking of trying to memorize Chopin Ballade 2 with the jumps, it is "shorter" and in definite contrasting chunks. And I think it's one that will definitely "free me" to play more emotionally if it's not tied to the score.

ShiroKuro Hmm… maybe I should memorize in solidatry with you, @twocats 😆

Let me know if you want to eat your vegetables with me! But just one serving a day for right now 😆

twocats

I found the video that Josephine suggested, if anyone else wants to check it out!

Simonb

Hi twocats

I strongly recommend studying chords (Chordal analysis as your friend describes it). I did this when I was in my late teens just to get away from having to have sheet music in front of me. Then I could put guitar chords in front of myself and play without needing any sheet music. This of course was not for classical, but for Rock, Blues and Jazz.

But as I've said many times on PW, that effort (which took me several years) eventually fed it's way back into my classical playing, and reading music in general, as I see groups of notes as chords and read music faster as a result.

As an analogy it's rather like reading words. You don't read the individual letters, you just read the words. Same with notes and chords. I see the notes but read it as a chord, and with a lot of chords, can instantly play it, or arpegiate it. Of course it takes a lot of hard work and for quite a while I'd have to analysis what was on the page, and check that what I was doing was correct. But the benefits for me were huge, and as a result of that effort I've been playing in Rock, Blues & Jazz bands since the 1980s. The benefit to my reading was an unexpected bonus!

Cheers

ShiroKuro

twocats My friend said once you transition to memorized it's a different part of your brain and you can't really go back to the score.

This was my experience.... I would memorize something, maybe play it in a recital or something, and then let it slip from my fingers..... Then, some time later, when I tried to bring it back, it felt like I had to learn it all over again, like I'd never seen it before.

When I have a piece that I polish (and perform) from the score, in which I play it from the score always, if I put it away and come back to it, the time and effort to get it back is so, so much less! So that was what I mean above by saying that not memorizing helps me have a larger playable repertoire.

I suspect the real problem is that, with a piece that was previously memorized and then forgotten, there's probably something I need to do differently to bring it back, and I don't know what that is.

But like you, I'm a good sightreader and it feels so much easier and more efficient to just keep the score....

But it's been a long time since I memorized anything, maybe I have evolved (we can always dream! 😛

The other thing is that probably, with a piece that's been memorized, we maybe could return to the score before putting the piece away and letting it slip from our fingers... Dunno, never tried that!

Anyway, if I pick a vegetable -- I mean score, to memorize, I'll let you know. I guess it depends on how lazy I am! 😃

twocats

Simonb oh gosh I don't even know where to start! I had to take music theory for RCM but it was decades ago.

I can easily recognize a major or minor chord or a diminished 7th but putting it in context of the key signature especially if it's "unconventional" just seems overwhelming. I think with the Chopin there's so much going on that at least if I can recognize the starting chord for a phrase I will reduce my chances of blanking out and getting lost.

ShiroKuro

Simonb I strongly recommend studying chords (Chordal analysis as your friend describes it).

I know I need to do this.... I've tried studying music theory on my own, using those random books (like Alfred's music theory course) and there's so much to wade through, a lot of which I sort of half know, that I get bogged down and drift away from it....

I also tried having lessons with jazz teachers, my intention being to get a better grasp on chord theory, but both teachers I worked with were a bad fit for me (that's a topic for another thread). And so I reverted to what I know, playing from a score with teachers who take a traditional (classical-esque) approach. And obviously my playing has continued to improve over the years, so it's not like what I'm doing is bad, but there's still that hole in my playing and in my knowledge....

I feel like I need a very special kind of teacher, like maybe someone trained to teach jazz to classical players or something?

Sigh....

twocats

ShiroKuro Anyway, if I pick a vegetable -- I mean score, to memorize, I'll let you know. I guess it depends on how lazy I am! 😃

Hah!

Stub

I do wonder if the idea that memorization lets you put more of yourself into it, or more emotion, or whatever, is true? If you listened to a recording, would you be able to tell if the piece was memorized or not? Same for live performances. Is the audience imputing more emotion to the playing when they see an empty music desk, when no difference actually exists?

Whether to memorize of not is certainly a personal preference. My gut feeling is that if you have to talk yourself into it, it's probably not for you.

twocats

Stub I do wonder if the idea that memorization lets you put more of yourself into it, or more emotion, or whatever, is true?

I think I would access the piece differently in my brain, I did have to memorize everything as a kid for competitions and exams so I kind-of remember what it's like. I will try it and see where it goes. I do that the Chopin Ballade 2 would benefit from being memorized (on an emotional level) and it doesn't seem as daunting as others, so it's a good candidate! My friend didn't think the Bach would be as good an option and I agreed.

ShiroKuro

Stub I do wonder if the idea that memorization lets you put more of yourself into it, or more emotion, or whatever, is true?

I suspect this is something that each of us probably needs to experiment with, and over years of playing, it might change...

Just speaking for myself, on the one hand, I think for most of the pieces I play, playing from the score is not a detriment to my potential for expressive playing...

On the other hand, I think there are pieces that I would have done better with had I memorized them (September Song by Alexis Ffrench comes to mind...)

One reason, and I'm just totally thinking out loud here.... with a more challenging piece, I notice that I often have trouble at the page turn.... even though I use a Bluetooth foot pedal... But just having to move my foot and turn the page often adds a little cognitive burden.... Probably we could say that means I haven't fully learned or polished the piece, so I guess the question is, would memorizing the piece be that last little push past those kinds of lingering issues?

Dunno....

twocats

twocats I found the video that Josephine suggested, if anyone else wants to check it out!

I have to do PT this morning so listening to this video as I do my exercises! Will report back 🙂

Simonb

Hi ShiroKuro

I taught myself, as when I started doing it, there was no internet, and I couldn't afford (and was too scared!) to find a teacher. It's not as daunting as you might think, and once you get the ball rolling it's immensely satisfying.

I remember the first chord I worked out, which was an F major chord F A C. I never used instruction books, I'd just pick a song then look at the sheet music and the chord symbol above or below, and work out why that chord symbol was what it was. Starting very simply and gradually getting more complex as time went on. It also started my uphill struggle with learning to improvise.

In the 1980s and 2000s I did have lessons with professional Jazz Pianists, and whilst I found this beneficial in the end the work I did on my own is still the foundation of how I play and read to this day.

Which is not to say I'm anything special; I'm most certainly very average, but I'd be a much lesser musician without that work that I put in all those years ago.

Cheers

ShiroKuro

Simonb I taught myself, as when I started doing it, there was no internet, and I couldn't afford (and was too scared!) to find a teacher. It's not as daunting as you might think, and once you get the ball rolling it's immensely satisfying.

I have a lot of respect for people who can be successful in a self-taught way!

I have never been one to find success in a self-taught or self-guided venture... I need a syllabus, I need a teacher or a coach... Although it's been years since I looked at my music theory books, maybe now is a good time to take another look...

twocats

twocats listening to this video as I do my exercises! Will report back 🙂

Ok, he's memorizing a piece he's never even ever heard for the video. These are the techniques he's developed for himself and that he teaches to his students.

He always memorizes hands separately because it's easier for the brain. @ShiroKuro he says it makes it far easier to recover a piece when he comes back to it in the future!

He does it small phrases at a time (just a few bars), closes the book, plays it in his head, makes mental notes. Sometimes he plays it different ways or with both hands (just for right hand part).

He says to learn it properly you need to "forget it a few times" and relearn it, and then it'll be deeper in your memory. He says he tries to artificially forget it to speed up the process, I'm not sure what that means.

Now he's playing a phrase without the piano (with the fallboard closed), saying the chords out loud.

If he forgets a spot he tries to recall it from his memory before he looks at the score, he says that makes it commit deeper into his memory.

He's playing RH from the beginning from memory, he says sometimes it helps to close his eyes.

He says he memorizes a whole piece hands separately, up to speed, with phrasing, basically performance level hands separately. And then when he puts it together it's much easier. He says the first time you do it it'll take much longer and be difficult but it gets easier.

Can't hurt to try this!

ShiroKuro

twocats Can't hurt to try this!

Yes it can, my brain hurts just reading it!!! 😆

Joking aside... what he's doing sounds very, very hard! I almost never play/practice HS and so much of the time, fingering and other gestures on one hand are partly determined by what the other hand is doing.... And then my memory of music (by which I mean, playing music, even when I'm playing from a score) is clearly based at least in part by the two hands together.... So I'm super interested that he's doing this HS approach!

Ugh, where's the "memorization for mortals" video?? 😅