keystring So I guess you're saying that it wasn't unclear to you but you wanted to see if what you thought the idea was matched what the teacher's idea was?

    I actually don't know if you teach, and so whether we're coming at this from the same mindset. Originally I simply asked whether you had run into an explanation for the teddy-tosses. I expected there to be an explanation, because in pedagogy we have principles, and then use devices for those principles. For example, in teaching math in primary grades, there is the principle that students are in a "concrete stage" and so we give concrete activities. If a teacher has students count apples, or red counting blocks, or hamsters - the important thing is not the hamsters, but the principle of "concrete stage".
    ----It might be that this is not real pedagogy, but a series of teaching routines that have been worked out (starting off from principles that haven't been explained) that all teachers are expected to follow. In that case, they would explain what they are doing, but not why they are doing it.
    ---- Hope this makes sense.

      keystring I think the teacher is using clever and interesting tricks that young children enjoy to teach technical and musical ideas.The pedagogical ideas involved are obvious in almost every video.

          I agree. But in a teacher forum I'm also interested in the underlying pedagogy. I'd really love to hear the thinking behind the stuffed animal toss.

          pianoloverus The pedagogical ideas involved are obvious in almost every video.

          Can you cite a few pedagogical ideas? I'm interested in what you're seeing. I don't mean the actual thing being taught, but the pedagogical idea behind it. I'll wait before citing mine.

              keystring

              keystring Can you cite a few pedagogical ideas? I'm interested in what you're seeing. I don't mean the actual thing being taught, but the pedagogical idea behind it. I'll wait before citing min

              I don't see any difference between a pedagogical idea and what's being taught and see those as synonyms which is how I think most people view them. In fact the title of the youtube page for this teacher is Piano Muso Pedagogy. You seem to feel there's a difference just based on your question and some other comments you've made but I'm not really interested in dwelling on that as I don't see how it's important and just a question of semantics.

              The pedagogical idea is often given in the title of the video. There was a video on slurs where the teacher put an animal on the child's hand that was supposed flip off a certain way when she moved her hand correctly at the end of the slur. There was a video of a student playing the opening of Chopin's second scherzo where the teacher had the student do push-ups on the closed fallboard and push in and out on a large teddy bear to give them the feeling of transferring more weight into the keys or keeping their fingers more firm so the chord they were playing too softly could be played louder. There was another video where the teacher used different sized teddy bears to remind the student about different dynamic levels. etc.

                  I still don't know if you're a teacher, a trained teacher, and so on which level (which kinds of reference points) to have this conversation. That may be why we're missing each other.

                  Some principles that I see and also agree with:

                  • introduce a single concept at a time
                  • introduce it with actions, few words, in a clear concrete manner
                  • the teddy bears may induce a non-stiff, flexible touch
                  • in a 40 minute lesson, switch points of focus frequently so as to maintain attention. Mark the shift through the "toss".
                  • positive, encouraging feedback (high fives etc.), not threats, fear, or chiding
                  • teaching reading skills from the very start, in that particular manner
                  • shape physical habits from the very start

                  Those are the principles I see behind the specific things being done. I like what I see.

                    I liked how reading is introduced. The child is asked to count how many lines up a note is, and then recognize its location on the piano. There are no note names. I've worked with someone who teaches in a similar manner. You create a direct association between the "picture" of a notehead on line X and "that" piano key. When you finally learn the name "D", that name attaches itself to this combined picture. That is different from how it's traditionally taught, where "D" associates once to a picture, once to a piano key (one of many D's), making it a dual task.

                    The more I think of the plush animals, the more I like it. Early on when I had just gotten back to piano, I was corresponding with a teacher and I remarked that I'm silly in associating piano keys to marshmallows. He then wrote a 3 paragraph response on why piano keys are marshmallows. 😃 The sort feel of the plush animal may give exactly the right kind of physical response, which should never become stiffness.

                    The tossing back and forth is also to be done a particular way. Part of playing the piano is also a kind of tossing of the arms.

                    Thank you for sharing this site.

                    keystring I still don't know if you're a teacher, a trained teacher, and so on which level (which kinds of reference points) to have this conversation. That may be why we're missing each other.

                    Some principles that I see and also agree with:
                    introduce a single concept at a time
                    introduce it with actions, few words, in a clear concrete manner
                    the teddy bears may induce a non-stiff, flexible touch
                    in a 40 minute lesson, switch points of focus frequently so as to maintain attention. Mark the shift through the "toss".
                    positive, encouraging feedback (high fives etc.), not threats, fear, or chiding
                    teaching reading skills from the very start, in that particular manner
                    shape physical habits from the very start

                    Those are the principles I see behind the specific things being done. I like what I see.

                    I had about 50 years experience teaching math before retiring so hopefully I know a little bit about teaching. From your examples in the above post I now can see what you meant by pedagogical principles versus some more specific skills. You were talking about very general or broad pedagogical principles while I was including more specific ideas about technique and musicianship in the category of pedagogical principles.

                        pianoloverus had about 50 years experience teaching math before retiring so hopefully I know a little bit about teaching. From your examples in the above post I now can see what you meant by pedagogical principles versus some more specific skills.

                        Perfect!

                        You were talking about very general or broad pedagogical principles while I was including more specific ideas about technique and musicianship in the category of pedagogical principles.

                        That seems correct.

                          9 days later

                          I got absorbed by the site yesterday when I had the time. What they're doing seems excellent on all fronts. I think the 3rd leg of this stool is parental involvement; in the least that the atmosphere at home is conducive for the kids carrying out those things at home so they stick, because quite a bit is taught. Not in terms of "this piece, then that piece, then that piece" but "this skill, that skill, the other skill". (right up my alley)

                          I'm also reminded of what I was once told by a teacher in person: "Students must feel safe." How much is fear a hidden factor in music? Beyond the intentional old fashioned "nun rapping errant fingers with a ruler", there is the fear of making a mistake, looking bad in front of the teacher, sitting like a good little statue so as to be perfect. The stuffed animals I fussed about before, they are part of fun, non-threatening, and reassuring. I first worried about a factor of "posing for the camera" which we do see in demos, but the laughter seems genuine, spontaneous and relaxed.

                          In videos about legato (or slurs) the release is induced by plopping little stuffed animals on a playing hand, and the goal is to flip the critter to fall forward but not to the floor. That is a thing that will make you laugh, but also you're not self-conscious, fussing about your wrist and fingers - you're aiming at the flip and end up with free loose movement. There happens to be a little stuffed frog by the piano. Tried it. Frog loved it! 😃

                          The one thing I worried about is, if all teachers do the same thing, is there room for a good teacher creating a lesson geared to a given student, aiming for the same goals but altering the specifics? The other side of this is consistency. All teachers flip stuffed animals and such; if a teacher is sick or moves away it continues - and they can still apply the ideas their own way. In fact, there are a couple of videos about different student personalities, and gearing toward that.

                          I watched this full lesson now. It includes advice on how to help a child at home in their practising. I also liked that he said the goal of the pieces is NOT to perfect the piece but gain the skills being learned in this piece. New skills can then go into the next piece while what was learned will also come into the new piece.