ShiroKuro

Andrea Dow (and her husband) created a new/different teaching method for those who just can't stomach classical music/methodology.

She has an entire repertoire series from first beginner to late intermediate/early advanced. Wolf is from her Intermediate Performance Level 2 book. Lots of her stuff is on Youboob.

This is part of the first page of the score of Wolf.

You may have mentioned it above, but will you be asking your teacher if the piece is too much of a challenge at this point and if it is, does the teacher have a suggestion for something that is appropriately challenging for you? I want--I expect--my teacher's input on whether a piece is too much for me. Often a piece she has me work on feels like it's too much of a stretch, but after a short time things start to sort themselves out and I end up learning a lot from the challenge of the piece. On the other hand, there was a movement of a sonata I wanted to learn and brought to my teacher, and she agreed to teach it too me. I ended up abandoning it because it was too difficult for me. The long and short of it is, my teacher is much better at judging challenging vs. too challenging than I am.

    twocats that's a great suggestion, thank you!

    lilypad I'm gradually learning that I'm not a good judge of difficulty by just looking at a score.

    Yeah, I don't think I'm a good judge either! 😛

    @Player1 thanks for that info and the pic from the score. It looks pretty easy to me, but I'll try it later tonight.

    For the record, although I started as an adult beginner, I've been playing the piano for 25 years now, with very little breaks and almost always worked with a teacher.

    Stub will you be asking your teacher if the piece is too much of a challenge at this point and if it is, does the teacher have a suggestion for something that is appropriately challenging for you?

    Stub The long and short of it is, my teacher is much better at judging challenging vs. too challenging than I am.

    Yes! I will definitely be asking him! We've been working together for a year now, so he knows my playing really well.

    I just can’twait until Wednesday, hence this thread!!! 😅

    Maybe you can use some short sections as exercises. I'm doing the same with a difficult piece now. I chose a short section I like somewhere in the middle of the piece, only 16 measures. I'm practicing the measures hands separately now as exercises and I'm learning new things!

      Josephine that’s a great idea, thanks!

        ShiroKuro On noticing the gap between what I can play, and what I want to play….

        I have found that gap has only continued to grow as I have learned more. I didn't know what I didn't know when I was first starting out, but now that I've played for a few years and been exposed to so much music, I want to play everything and I know I'm still decades away from doing so. 😞

        My luck with teachers had been hit or miss, but I've been with a really good one now for about five months. I definitely know my technique has improved, my ability to pick up early intermediate pieces quickly has improved, but I have a hundred songs I'd love to play that I know are still beyond my reach.

        I recently learned Patience by The Lumineers, hoping maybe it'd remind me to be patient!

        ShiroKuro I think some of this depends a lot on things we don’t know, but I’ll give you a framework of how I might think about it. (BTW, my bias is that I gravitate to pieces that are fairly challenging for me but not totally impossible).

        1. How much do you really want to play the piece?
          If it is a big stretch piece, it will be a big commitment and it helps to really, really want to play the piece.
        2. Are there any other pieces that you can think of that are intermediate in difficulty between what you’ve been playing and this piece?
          If there are obvious alternatives that are somewhere in between in difficulty, and you like them quite a bit, then this is what I’d do.
        3. How much is it outside your current skillset? (If you can’t easily judge this, your teacher could help. Alternatively, you may just have to start working on it and see what happens.)
        4. Do you get frustrated trying to work through things that are big challenges or does working through big challenges help keep you engaged?

        Talk to your teacher, but if you really want to give it a try, I say go for it. Work on it for a month and see where you are. If at the end of that time, you’re totally frustrated, then let it go (at least for now). If you find you’re making progress that is acceptable to you, keep going!

        Nothing ventured, nothing gained,

        Ok I played through the intro tonight, which isn’t the hardest part, and doesn’t have those crazy runs…

        I think the first three pages are doable, it would be a “stretch piece” but doable. The last three pages (I think the sample I posted above is page 4) … well, I think that’s the part that’s maybe too far out of my league at present.

        And I don’t think it’s a good use of time for where I’m at and what I’m doing (which includes wanting to have a new piece to record each month and wanting to have a short set of maybe three pieces perform)

        I will still show it to my teacher, but I think this should go in the “return to later” list. So the point in showing him is to discuss what I should be playing to get me closer to where this piece will be less of a hard stretch.

        I've discovered over the years that I tend to be somewhat intimidated by a page full of scale/arpeggio figures. If I actually sit down and try playing the music very slowly I am often surprised that I might be able to play the piece, at least somewhat under tempo. If it ends up being one of those that I never am able to play convincingly at tempo, then so be it; it's still a valuable experience in my training as an amateur pianist, it might make learning similar works somewhat easier in the future.
        If I feel I've hit a wall in terms of my physical technique limitations, I generally know when to stop and move onto something else.

          You don't have to commit immediately to either learning or not learning the piece. If your teacher thinks it might be possible, You can start trying to learn a few lines from the difficult pages and see how successful you are. That would give you a better idea how reasonable learning for pieces without wasting a lot of time by committing to trying to learn the whole piece.

            pseudonym58 I've discovered over the years that I tend to be somewhat intimidated by a page full of scale/arpeggio figures.

            I used to be the opposite, IOW I would underestimate the difficulty of pieces. I think I’m getting better about that, but it’s a work in progress isn’t it!

            pianoloverus You don't have to commit immediately to either learning or not learning the piece.

            Well, yes and no, though… I like to be systematic in how I use my practice time, and I also made a goal for myself of doing one recording each month (i.e., one recording where the piece is polished and I feel good about sharing it with people). And I’m working more on sightreading than I used to. And I work full time, so my practice time is always more limited than I want it to be. So if I’m not going to commit to something, then I’d rather use my practice time for something else.

            My lesson is tomorrow (yay, I always look forward to lesson day!) so I’m going to talk with my teacher about it.

            If he thinks it’s too difficult for me right now, I’m going to ask what we should be working on, adding to my practice routine, to make this a piece I could more easily tackle in a year from now.

            pianoloverus You can start trying to learn a few lines from the difficult pages and see how successful you are

            Oh, and to this point, although I know I just said that I don’t want to use my practice time on this if I’m not going to focus on learning it, let me contradict myself 😅

            The first three pages are challenging in a different way from the page I posted above (page 5). I don’t think I’ve really played a piece that has runs like that. So it makes a lot of sense to me to pull out some lines from that section (p. 5) and treat them like exercises. Like maybe do some scales and arps practice in that key, and then practice those runs…

            We’ll see, I’ll report back after my lesson tomorrow. 🙂

              ShiroKuro pianoloverus You don't have to commit immediately to either learning or not learning the piece.

              Well, yes and no, though… I like to be systematic in how I use my practice time, and I also made a goal for myself of doing one recording each month (i.e., one recording where the piece is polished and I feel good about sharing it with people). And I’m working more on sightreading than I used to. And I work full time, so my practice time is always more limited than I want it to be. So if I’m not going to commit to something, then I’d rather use my practice time for something else.

              My lesson is tomorrow (yay, I always look forward to lesson day!) so I’m going to talk with my teacher about it.

              If he thinks it’s too difficult for me right now, I’m going to ask what we should be working on, adding to my practice routine, to make this a piece I could more easily tackle in a year from now.

              pianoloverus You can start trying to learn a few lines from the difficult pages and see how successful you are

              Oh, and to this point, although I know I just said that I don’t want to use my practice time on this if I’m not going to focus on learning it, let me contradict myself 😅

              The first three pages are challenging in a different way from the page I posted above (page 5). I don’t think I’ve really played a piece that has runs like that. So it makes a lot of sense to me to pull out some lines from that section (p. 5) and treat them like exercises. Like maybe do some scales and arps practice in that key, and then practice those runs…

              The point of my suggestion is to minimize time that would be lost by avoiding committing to a piece and then after many weeks or months realizing it's too difficult. If you try the most difficult passages and realize they're beyond your current ability, you've only lost a small amount of time compared to committing to learning a piece and then giving up after several months.

                Sorry, I think I misunderstood your post. Re this:

                pianoloverus If you try the most difficult passages and realize they're beyond your current ability

                I've already done that with the "easier" hard part, which is why I don't think this is the right time for me to work on this piece.

                We'll see, lesson day is tomorrow!

                Not here to write any advice but just a comment. The original post reminded me of the Animenz Youtube channel and how I enjoyed his arrangements, so I went to his web site and ordered the two volume set. Thanks @ShiroKuro for the suggestion!

                  BartK oooh, thanks for the link, he has sooo many arrangements!!!

                  Also, when you say you ordered a set, do you mean of sheet music?

                    ShiroKuro Also, when you say you ordered a set, do you mean of sheet music?

                    Yes, I mean the two volume sheet music.

                    Just a warning, they are pretty advanced...

                      BartK yes, I gather!!! First of all, just based on Call of Silence, but also I’ve been sort of poking around through different pieces.

                      Really rich arrangements!!!

                      Well I had my lesson today! (Yay, have I mentioned that I love lesson days? 😃

                      My teacher agreed that it's a little bit too much of a stretch, so we talked about things to work on to sort of push myself forward.

                      We talked about the fact that there are different kinds of complexity. For example, a piece could be hard because it has a fast tempo. Or maybe it's rhythmically or melodically challenging, say because it has lots of syncopation or a very intricate or involved melody line. Or a piece could be hard because it has harmonic complexity, so lots of chords in one or both hands ... And of course, a piece could have some combination of these, or all of these elements.

                      So we looked at the pieces I'm working on right now, and most of them are not very chordal. He pointed out that I am pretty good with pieces that are complex because of tempo of rhythmic/melodic challenges, but he said pieces that have a lot of 3- or 4-note chords, esp. in the right hand, those are the ones I am more likely to find challenging.

                      That made a lot of sense to me.

                      Oh he also pointed out that another thing I'm good about is playing in all kinds of different keys, so multiple sharps or flats don't bother me, and I have pieces that take me up and down the keyboard, big arps and octaves etc....

                      It was nice to have him point out my strengths as well as my shortcomings. I hadn't really thought about it that way, but the things I'm go at or the kinds of pieces I can get into my fingers quickly have those characteristics.

                      So he wants me to work on a Chopin prelude and a Rachmaninoff prelude (because he said they're more chordal).

                      And I showed him some pieces that I've started in the past but given up on, and we agreed on ones that I should return to now, which are more chordal...

                      Oh and we picked out my recital pieces for April, and talked about a potential mini concert as well.

                      And I feel like I have a better understanding of what I'm good at and where I need more work.

                      So it was a very good lesson and I have three more pieces to get started on! 😄

                      So, yeah… after I posted this last night, I went and actually got the music for the Rachmaninoff prelude he wants me to play… I didn’t recognize the name but of course I know it.

                      It’s the Prelude in C# minor, Op. 3 No. 2.

                      He has way too much faith in me! 😅

                      Granted, he said “for now just work on the first page” but still!

                      I’ll start with the Chopin.

                      Good grief!