On noticing the gap…

ShiroKuro

On noticing the gap between what I can play, and what I want to play….

Here’s a piece I’m working on polishing right now, New Day by Philip Wesley. This piece is definitely on the easier side of the pieces I play, and it’s come together really quickly, so it’s maybe not representative of my “maximum playing ability” … but anyway, take a look: here’s the original, and one page from the score:

On the other hand, here’s Call of Silence, played by @rach3master . Here’s a page from the score, and them playing it:

It’s been a long time since I found a piece that I really want to play, and looked at the score and decided it’s way too hard for me. Partly that’s because I choose pieces pretty strategically so they’re sort of in the range of my current level. But also I think a lot of the time, I don’t push myself, or rather, I don’t push my technique….

I also think this is a feature of playing contemporary music, there’s not a graded/progressive syllabus the way there is with the traditional classical repertoire. So you can play an almost infinite number of pieces at what I think of as a lower intermediate level, and I think that’s where I’ve been playing for the last several years.

The question is, what’s the best thing for me to do at this point…. Take a piece a piece like Call of Silence, break it up and start working on it… or find a more step-wise piece, harder than what I’m playing right now, but not so much of a jump…

I’ll be talking with my teacher this at our lesson this week, but if anyone has any thoughts, please share them!

Player1

ShiroKuro

I'm kind of in the same boat where my desire to play certain pieces exceeds my skill level.

For those of us who don't have a teacher it can be very difficult to learn a challenging piece because we don't get feedback on how to do better. Whereas with a teacher you can get help to gain techniques/playing secrets to get over the hurdles where you struggle. Little things can make a big difference here, especially in pieces like Call of Silence which have multiple arpeggio runs and gigantic leaps that demand a higher skill level.

For me; I tried to learn Wolf by Andrea Dow and couldn't. Not because I can't recognize what to play, but because I can't process fast enough to get where I need to be accurately enough to play. I worked for a month on just the first jumps and couldn't get past my tremors being aggravated because of the tension from the demand for a skill level I don't possess.

I've done this on other pieces where I've watched performances and tried to copy them and failed because I'm just not good enough yet. It's not just about finger speed or nimbleness on the keyboard, it's also about concentration and mental processing ability. So, my thoughts will probably mirror your teacher's in that super huge stretch pieces don't help advance your skills. Hammering on them might actually set you back. You need to have patience and work your way up to those works by taking smaller bites at it.

Which, as we all know, is how you eat an elephant. This is no different.

lilypad

ShiroKuro I'm gradually learning that I'm not a good judge of difficulty by just looking at a score. I shy away from scores packed with 16th notes or worse like the score you show with 32nd notes, but sometimes they can just be scale passages or easy patterns and a slow or moderate tempo indication.

One of the more difficult piece I've played was a piano arrangement of "Ashokan Farewell". There was so much while space on the pages that I almost tossed out the score as too easy until I tried it.

pianocat

ShiroKuro On noticing the gap between what I can play, and what I want to play….

I have found that gap has only continued to grow as I have learned more. I didn't know what I didn't know when I was first starting out, but now that I've played for a few years and been exposed to so much music, I want to play everything and I know I'm still decades away from doing so. 😞

My luck with teachers had been hit or miss, but I've been with a really good one now for about five months. I definitely know my technique has improved, my ability to pick up early intermediate pieces quickly has improved, but I have a hundred songs I'd love to play that I know are still beyond my reach.

I recently learned Patience by The Lumineers, hoping maybe it'd remind me to be patient!

ShiroKuro

Player1 my thoughts will probably mirror your teacher's in that super huge stretch pieces don't help advance your skills.

I tend to agree, that a stretch piece which is too much of a stretch won't be good or useful...

But not pushing at all, never playing something above one's current level isn't good either. I think I've been flitting about among pieces that are really easy for me, that I polish up very quickly. There's good in that, of course, but it's like horizontal progress instead of vertical...

Anyway, what I can't decide is whether this (Call of Silence) is too much of a stretch or not... I was looking at the scores for some of the other pieces I completed last year, and the one I posted above (New Day) is definitely not representative (i.e., New Day is much easier).... but I just can't judge how much of a stretch Call of Silence is... I only put my hands on it once so far (yesterday) and my lesson is on Wed. so I'll try to work on bits of it each day until then. We'll see....

Thanks for sharing Wolf, I'm not familiar with that piece or that composer. I've played a few pieces where the hands cross, maybe not repeatedly like that though. But when it fits in the piece, and it fits on the keyboard, there's something quite satisfying about that kind of cross over 🙂

By the way, re this:

You need to have patience and work your way up to those works by taking smaller bites at it.

Exactly.... I think I've been "taking the same size bites" (to overwork your metaphor) by playing pieces that are of similar difficulty.

It's not clear to me what a mid-way piece would be that would get me closer to Call of Silence (and I don't think Wolf is it, exactly, although I don't have the score and just now was my first time listening to it).

Player1

Added here:

This is Wolf by Andrea Dow. Listening to it, I suddenly find myself comparing it to Call of Silence although not nearly as technically challenging.

That similarity might be why, like you, I find rach3master's performance so compelling. It has all the things I like about contemporary piano, the flow, the drama, the emotion, everything.

You might consider using Wolf as a stepping stone to close the "gap."

twocats

Do you ever practice arpeggios? Not all of the left hand are straight arpeggios but the movements are similar. I think getting familiar with those patterns will help a lot!

ShiroKuro

twocats Do you ever practice arpeggios? Not all of the left hand are straight arpeggios but the movements are similar. I think getting familiar with those patterns will help a lot!

I used to. I used to do scales and arps, and when I was working on September Song, which was hard for me at the beginning, I did scales and arps in that key signature, both major and minor (five sharps IIRC).

So that was one thing I was thinking re Call of Silence, is I need to get back to scales and arps, and actually the cadences too, just so I can quickly get my fingers on those notes....

Anyway, thank you for this suggestion!

I have a PDf of my favorite scales and arps book, I need to get just the page for this key, and put it into my practice rotation.

I will do that tonight!

Player1

ShiroKuro

Andrea Dow (and her husband) created a new/different teaching method for those who just can't stomach classical music/methodology.

She has an entire repertoire series from first beginner to late intermediate/early advanced. Wolf is from her Intermediate Performance Level 2 book. Lots of her stuff is on Youboob.

This is part of the first page of the score of Wolf.

twocats

ShiroKuro So that was one thing I was thinking re Call of Silence, is I need to get back to scales and arps

Maybe you could practice the specific sequences in the piece! Instead of just left hand exactly as the score indicates, take that pattern and run it up and down a few octaves. Your teacher could help with fingerings, because those matter a lot. Once you're really comfortable with them, those sequences come for free 🙂

ShiroKuro

twocats that's a great suggestion, thank you!

lilypad I'm gradually learning that I'm not a good judge of difficulty by just looking at a score.

Yeah, I don't think I'm a good judge either! 😛

@Player1 thanks for that info and the pic from the score. It looks pretty easy to me, but I'll try it later tonight.

For the record, although I started as an adult beginner, I've been playing the piano for 25 years now, with very little breaks and almost always worked with a teacher.

Stub will you be asking your teacher if the piece is too much of a challenge at this point and if it is, does the teacher have a suggestion for something that is appropriately challenging for you?

Stub The long and short of it is, my teacher is much better at judging challenging vs. too challenging than I am.

Yes! I will definitely be asking him! We've been working together for a year now, so he knows my playing really well.

I just can’twait until Wednesday, hence this thread!!! 😅

Stub

You may have mentioned it above, but will you be asking your teacher if the piece is too much of a challenge at this point and if it is, does the teacher have a suggestion for something that is appropriately challenging for you? I want--I expect--my teacher's input on whether a piece is too much for me. Often a piece she has me work on feels like it's too much of a stretch, but after a short time things start to sort themselves out and I end up learning a lot from the challenge of the piece. On the other hand, there was a movement of a sonata I wanted to learn and brought to my teacher, and she agreed to teach it too me. I ended up abandoning it because it was too difficult for me. The long and short of it is, my teacher is much better at judging challenging vs. too challenging than I am.

Josephine

Maybe you can use some short sections as exercises. I'm doing the same with a difficult piece now. I chose a short section I like somewhere in the middle of the piece, only 16 measures. I'm practicing the measures hands separately now as exercises and I'm learning new things!

ShiroKuro

Josephine that’s a great idea, thanks!

Sgisela

ShiroKuro I think some of this depends a lot on things we don’t know, but I’ll give you a framework of how I might think about it. (BTW, my bias is that I gravitate to pieces that are fairly challenging for me but not totally impossible).

How much do you really want to play the piece?
If it is a big stretch piece, it will be a big commitment and it helps to really, really want to play the piece.
Are there any other pieces that you can think of that are intermediate in difficulty between what you’ve been playing and this piece?
If there are obvious alternatives that are somewhere in between in difficulty, and you like them quite a bit, then this is what I’d do.
How much is it outside your current skillset? (If you can’t easily judge this, your teacher could help. Alternatively, you may just have to start working on it and see what happens.)
Do you get frustrated trying to work through things that are big challenges or does working through big challenges help keep you engaged?

Talk to your teacher, but if you really want to give it a try, I say go for it. Work on it for a month and see where you are. If at the end of that time, you’re totally frustrated, then let it go (at least for now). If you find you’re making progress that is acceptable to you, keep going!

Nothing ventured, nothing gained,

ShiroKuro

Ok I played through the intro tonight, which isn’t the hardest part, and doesn’t have those crazy runs…

I think the first three pages are doable, it would be a “stretch piece” but doable. The last three pages (I think the sample I posted above is page 4) … well, I think that’s the part that’s maybe too far out of my league at present.

And I don’t think it’s a good use of time for where I’m at and what I’m doing (which includes wanting to have a new piece to record each month and wanting to have a short set of maybe three pieces perform)

I will still show it to my teacher, but I think this should go in the “return to later” list. So the point in showing him is to discuss what I should be playing to get me closer to where this piece will be less of a hard stretch.

pseudonym58

I've discovered over the years that I tend to be somewhat intimidated by a page full of scale/arpeggio figures. If I actually sit down and try playing the music very slowly I am often surprised that I might be able to play the piece, at least somewhat under tempo. If it ends up being one of those that I never am able to play convincingly at tempo, then so be it; it's still a valuable experience in my training as an amateur pianist, it might make learning similar works somewhat easier in the future.
If I feel I've hit a wall in terms of my physical technique limitations, I generally know when to stop and move onto something else.

ShiroKuro

pseudonym58 I've discovered over the years that I tend to be somewhat intimidated by a page full of scale/arpeggio figures.

I used to be the opposite, IOW I would underestimate the difficulty of pieces. I think I’m getting better about that, but it’s a work in progress isn’t it!

pianoloverus You don't have to commit immediately to either learning or not learning the piece.

Well, yes and no, though… I like to be systematic in how I use my practice time, and I also made a goal for myself of doing one recording each month (i.e., one recording where the piece is polished and I feel good about sharing it with people). And I’m working more on sightreading than I used to. And I work full time, so my practice time is always more limited than I want it to be. So if I’m not going to commit to something, then I’d rather use my practice time for something else.

My lesson is tomorrow (yay, I always look forward to lesson day!) so I’m going to talk with my teacher about it.

If he thinks it’s too difficult for me right now, I’m going to ask what we should be working on, adding to my practice routine, to make this a piece I could more easily tackle in a year from now.

pianoloverus You can start trying to learn a few lines from the difficult pages and see how successful you are

Oh, and to this point, although I know I just said that I don’t want to use my practice time on this if I’m not going to focus on learning it, let me contradict myself 😅

The first three pages are challenging in a different way from the page I posted above (page 5). I don’t think I’ve really played a piece that has runs like that. So it makes a lot of sense to me to pull out some lines from that section (p. 5) and treat them like exercises. Like maybe do some scales and arps practice in that key, and then practice those runs…

We’ll see, I’ll report back after my lesson tomorrow. 🙂

pianoloverus

You don't have to commit immediately to either learning or not learning the piece. If your teacher thinks it might be possible, You can start trying to learn a few lines from the difficult pages and see how successful you are. That would give you a better idea how reasonable learning for pieces without wasting a lot of time by committing to trying to learn the whole piece.

pianoloverus

ShiroKuro pianoloverus You don't have to commit immediately to either learning or not learning the piece.

Well, yes and no, though… I like to be systematic in how I use my practice time, and I also made a goal for myself of doing one recording each month (i.e., one recording where the piece is polished and I feel good about sharing it with people). And I’m working more on sightreading than I used to. And I work full time, so my practice time is always more limited than I want it to be. So if I’m not going to commit to something, then I’d rather use my practice time for something else.

My lesson is tomorrow (yay, I always look forward to lesson day!) so I’m going to talk with my teacher about it.

If he thinks it’s too difficult for me right now, I’m going to ask what we should be working on, adding to my practice routine, to make this a piece I could more easily tackle in a year from now.

pianoloverus You can start trying to learn a few lines from the difficult pages and see how successful you are

Oh, and to this point, although I know I just said that I don’t want to use my practice time on this if I’m not going to focus on learning it, let me contradict myself 😅

The first three pages are challenging in a different way from the page I posted above (page 5). I don’t think I’ve really played a piece that has runs like that. So it makes a lot of sense to me to pull out some lines from that section (p. 5) and treat them like exercises. Like maybe do some scales and arps practice in that key, and then practice those runs…

The point of my suggestion is to minimize time that would be lost by avoiding committing to a piece and then after many weeks or months realizing it's too difficult. If you try the most difficult passages and realize they're beyond your current ability, you've only lost a small amount of time compared to committing to learning a piece and then giving up after several months.

ShiroKuro

Sorry, I think I misunderstood your post. Re this:

pianoloverus If you try the most difficult passages and realize they're beyond your current ability

I've already done that with the "easier" hard part, which is why I don't think this is the right time for me to work on this piece.

We'll see, lesson day is tomorrow!