I don't know if this is pertinent to the discussion. I have the CA97 with the Grand Feel III. I chose it because I was trying to bring my physical playing into line, and felt the physical sensations and responses (the keys responding to me, my hand responding to the action of the keys) were crucial for that. If that action was similar to an actual acoustic, then I'd be able to transition with more ease.

I did not think of another factor at the time. When we play and the action does its ideal thing, we also respond to the sound we end up producing. Supposing you have a wonderfully engineered action, but you end up with a weak sound or small dynamic range. Then you are going to start putting in a lot of physical effort for example to create fff if that hypothetical piano can only give you mp. (an exaggeration) This also affects what you do physically.

My values at the time were "I don't care for the impressive sound that a piano makes, because I'm the pianist, and it's up to me to shape the sound." Thus action was paramount. But I did not think of what I just cited.

Some time after getting my Kawai, I found a discussion on it, where some kind of limitation had been written into the software for fff. A bit afterward I played a piece which went to fff, and it simply "flatlined" at a given point. On Audacity, it's like somebody took a ruler and exacto-knife, and simply sliced the top. No settings could change that. In the discussion one IT expert had managed to write some kind of program to circumvent it. I can see myself putting in excessive physical effort for fff which will have no results, because the audio-feedback will give messages to my hands about what they are doing and achieving.

In short, physical responsiveness, optimized physical mechanics also have a counterpart in audial output, and this also affects what we do physically. That's the conclusion I've come to in the year that just passed.

    WieWaldi Often the black keys have the pivot point set back. About 10 to 15mm. Kawai RHIII is such an example

    Does Kawai RH III action stagger pivot points of black from white keys? The video below seem to show no stagger. Or maybe you were thinking the "RM3 Grand II" wooden key action in the VPC1 which does have the stagger?

        keystring Your thoughts are indeed pertinent to this discussion. The more I look into digital piano actions, the more I realize about the complexity of factors that affect how they "feel".

        For example, some frequent criticism of Roland's PHA-4 action it's "heavy", and "sluggish key return". I have not found any remedy to make the key return faster. However, because I use Pianoteq, once I set my speaker volume properly (i.e. not too quiet), and apply a velocity curve (i.e. boost low velocity response somewhat), I don't feel the action being heavy anymore.

        Another example, I've come across several comments on the RM3GII action in VPC1 and GF1 action in MP11SE, that people who have played both feel the difference being perceptible yet not significant enough to affect their playing. Now I know their pivot lengths are quite different. And I know PHA-4's pivot length is even longer than VPC1, yet the latter is universally regarded as better. So there must be factors other than pivot lengths that affects "feel". From physics point of view, I don't see why folded action design in itself carries any inherent inferiority. But may be the material (wood vs plastic/metal), the center of gravity (solid vs hollow), the mechanics (balance pin vs shaft hinge), or even the way the hammer moves, all contributes to the "feel" that makes wooden DP actions better?

        Your point on the sound reproduction must faithfully reflect what we do at the keys is a very important one. Once I begin to use Pianoteq, I can no longer go back to my FP-30X's built-in sound (sampled). The low-tier sampled sound engine does not produce the timber change that Pianoteq does which adds so much feedback to how I control the dynamics. Luckily I don't find Pianoteq's tone intolerable. Therefore, its richness in timber, sympathetic resonance, in combination of properly set dynamic range and sound volume via good studio monitors have given me great playability.

        My current thinking is no matter what digital piano I upgrade to, I'd probably keep using Pianoteq and external speaker for practicing. This certainly simplifies the criteria of selecting a good action by leaving only two things that matters: 1) physical limitations that can't be remedied by software (e.g. pivot length), and 2) the ability to generate full MIDI range (which can be somewhat remedied by software but preferably not).

          iternabe Maybe I am not correct with the laid back pivot point of RHIII. But I am sure, playing the black keys near the fallboard is okay, but not on the white keys.

          The best is to play those actions in person and try out what you want to know.
          Before going into a store, I would recommend you to get some in-memory repetoire with a lot of black keys near the fallboard. And one with a lot of white keys near the fallboard. And if you just make an exercise up for you.

            I totally forgot. Last time I wondered, why the black keys play okay near the fallboard, but the white ones are bad, I did some "scientific" research. (Without disassembling my keyboard action):

            The red and black pile are the same distance away from the fallboard, and the key-downweight is about similar. But the grey pile is sitting on the white key is way heavier than the blue one. Therefore I am quite sure, my subjective impression is objective correct.

            A laid back pivot point for the black keys is the only conclusion.

              I tried this on my ES920 which also has the RH-III action. I also found the black keys are easier to play near the fallboard than the white keys.

              I've never noticed a problem playing deep into the white keys. Just messing around a bit it seems like a Bb chord played with pinky and thumb on the Bbs and fingers 3 and 2 on the D and F is a worst case scenario:

              Playing the whole chord feels fine. If I weren't thinking about this issue I don't think I'd notice at all. If I play the notes one at a time the D and F feel a little awkward. But I can't tell if it's just because I'm now aware of the weight difference or if there's really an issue here!

              I'm away from home so I can't compare on my acoustic piano right now but I'm eager to do that when I get back!

                WieWaldi I made some calculation using your test data and measurements of distance using the picture of the action. The result does support the black keys' pivot point being staggered back by 15mm or so.

                On the other hand, this photo of the RH3 action still does not show that. Instead, it show that the weight plates for black keys are different than those for the white keys. To get to the bottom of this, I guess we either need you to take your piano apart 🙃, or we could ask @KawaiJames?

                  rogerch I'm away from home so I can't compare on my acoustic piano right now but I'm eager to do that when I get back!

                  I was just reading an article analyzing digital piano actions. The author said touch weight (measured by putting static weight on the key) only matters when playing the keys very softly (or at very low velocity). When playing more forcefully (or at high velocity), what matter more is moment of inertia. The higher the moment of inertia, the more difficult to get the key to move at higher velocity, the heavier it feels when playing louder.

                  Digital piano action usually have low moment of inertia (with the exception of wooden full length actions like Kawai's Grand Feel), but higher touch weight. So it feels slightly heavier when playing soft, but not heavy enough when playing loud.

                  Acoustic piano action have high moment of inertia, but lower touch weight. So it feels lighter when playing soft, but heavier when playing loud.

                  @rogerch I am eager to hear what you find out when you get a chance. Thanks!

                      iternabe @rogerch I am eager to hear what you find out when you get a chance. Thanks!

                      Yeah me too! Probably not until Wednesday night California time though!

                        I'm home! I compared my 5'7" acoustic action with my ES920 action. On both actions the white keys feel harder to press right up against the fallboard than at the front. On the ES920 the difference between the front and back of the key is more pronounced than on the acoustic.

                        On the ES920 the black keys feel harder to play right up against the fallboard. On the acoustic it doesn't feel different between front and back.

                        Interesting! Practically speaking though I don't think it matters as I've never noticed issues when playing close to the fallboard on either intrument.

                        12 days later

                        iternabe
                        The pivot on the VPC1 also is shorter than on the RHIII action of the ES920 or MP7SE. However, a seesaw action design like on the VPC1 is superior to a folded action design, so pivot length is not the only thing that matters.

                            sweelinck However, a seesaw action design like on the VPC1 is superior to a folded action design, so pivot length is not the only thing that matters.

                            This is something I have read a lot over in the other forum. Still I don't see a reason why this should be true. I mean, physics is physics and it is all about levers and weight and how the mass accelerates. If a seesaw design would be superior, the difference between Kawai wood actions and the Roland's would be night and day, but it isn't. I mean if mechanical principles would say so, the difference would be dramatic.

                            Kawai wood actions are better than folded designs, but not because of the seesaw design - it is because of the materials used and because it is constructed more costly. And because the longer pivot point - at least longer than most folded actions.

                                WieWaldi If a seesaw design would be superior, the difference between Kawai wood actions and the Roland's would be night and day, but it isn't.

                                Well, there are many parameters that go into action quality, and there is a substantial subjective component, but for me that leads to finding Kawai's seesaw actions to be significantly superior to Roland's folded actions.

                                A seesaw action has gravity from counterweighting of the other side of the balance rail to participate in resetting the key after release while a folded action must exclusively use springs.

                                    sweelinck a folded action must exclusively use springs.

                                    I don’t thinks the PHA-4 action in my Roland has any springs.

                                      15 days later

                                      iternabe
                                      Do you know the pivot lenght of the Fatar TP/400Wood action?

                                          harri no, but if there is an accurate side profile picture I should be able to take a measurement.

                                          • TC3 likes this.

                                            @harri @TC3 Assuming the picture is proportionally accurate, here it is. Pivot length of FATAR TP/40WOOD would be 201 mm.

                                            • TC3 likes this.

                                            Is the Kawai RHCII any different than the RHC?

                                            Enthusiastic but mediocre amateur.

                                            The TP/400wood should be an upgrade of the TP/40wood but I have no idea what they have changed
                                            I am looking for the technical specs but have not found any thing yet
                                            Is there anybody who owns an DP with TP/400wood, and if so is there a description in the manual about the action?