Clefs: how many do we really need?

Kkeystring · 9 Feb

WieWaldi Everything is true what you wrote about LH and RH. And I am very aware of it. I was just simplifying it, because most of the time the LH plays the bass clef and the RH plays the treble clef.

The problem with this kind of simplification is that it suggests what you understand and hold to be true. I'm not sure that I agree with the "most of the time".

WieWaldi And suddenly piano players are forced to read the treble clef on the lower staff. Most piano player are not used to do it.

This points to a major flaw in how music is taught. That situation should not exist. Here we're back in the world of teaching. For the last statement, most pianists would be used to it because it happens all over the place. But above all, we're getting at teaching flaws. That is a different topic.

If your system allows for the fact of what actually exists in music, namely that either hand can play anywhere on the keyboard, then all's good.

WieWaldi · 9 Feb

keystring If your system allows for the fact of what actually exists in music, namely that either hand can play anywhere on the keyboard, then all's good.

Every system allows this (the current treble/bass clef and my proposed bass-clef everywhere). My point is, to get rid of exceptions.

Kkeystring · 9 Feb

WieWaldi My point is, to get rid of exceptions.

exceptions to what?

WieWaldi · 9 Feb

keystring In the current system, the normal thing is to read the treble clef on the upper staff for the right hand, and read the bass clef on the lower staff for the left hand. Everything different than that is an exception.

Kkeystring · 9 Feb

WieWaldi In the current system, the normal thing is to read the treble clef on the upper staff for the right hand, and read the bass clef on the lower staff for the left hand. Everything different than that is an exception.

In the current system, the normal thing is to read music in the clef indicating the geographical area on the keyboard where the music occurs. What learners are exposed to and how it is taught may give an impression of a false norm which can also hamper the student in the long run or force an unnecessary transition later on.

Ppseudonym58 · 9 Feb

In general, ledger lines are a nuisance, especially when there are more than two of them between a note and the closest staff. In playing cello, I'm happy to have, in addition to the bass clef, the tenor clef and the treble clef to avoid the use of extensive ledger lines. I also prefer either 8va or 8vb (played an octave higher or an active lower than written) to avoid the use of ledger lines. I'm often surprised at the way violin music is written, sometimes with six or more ledger lines! Very cumbersome looking. Why not an 8va?

MRC · 9 Feb

pseudonym58 . I'm often surprised at the way violin music is written, sometimes with six or more ledger lines! Very cumbersome looking. Why not an 8va?

Talk to violinists and you will find out why. For a violinist, the place of a note on the page is associated with a place on the string. There is no simple octave shift, as there is on a piano. The way a passage is written, with ledger lines, corresponds to the way it feels when you play it.

Here's a bit more on the subject of ledger lines:

This is from Elaine Fine's Behind Bars, which is, without a doubt, the best book on modern music notation.

MRC · 9 Feb

Notice what Ms Fine says about keyboard instruments on that page: they can make more use of octave signs than other instruments, but it's better to keep the octave changes to a minimum:

"Even in piano music it is more helpful to show the contour of the music in order to alert the player to the necessary leap of the hand."

Kkeystring · 9 Feb

When I look at violin music, it doesn't often get higher than a few ledger lines except for advanced music with shifts into high positions. Reading is also less crucial than piano, where forum discussions are often about reading - in violin fora it's about stance, technique, endless debates about shoulder rests. That said, the points made make sense. Thank you for sharing.

MRC . For a violinist, the place of a note on the page is associated with a place on the string.

This is absolutely incorrect. Except for the lowest notes on the G string, a given note can be played on different strings, esp. higher notes. E5 is an open note on the E string (no fingers down). That same E5 can be played on the A string putting down the 4th finger (pinky) - or 1st finger at the same spot with hand shifted over. It can also be played on the D string, on a spot even higher up, with the hand shifted up even more. On the G string, 8th position with a bit of a stretch you might reach that same E5. Three or four locations for one pitch (note).

In addition, there are harmonics and artificial harmonics. I grabbed this from the net. The bottom notes are what you play - the top is the actual note you're aiming at. It's interactive so we can hear the pitch.

Just another element to reading music.
https://andrewhugill.com/manuals/violin/harmonics.html

Kkeystring · 9 Feb

(Continuing above idea) Recently in the other thread when Pashkuli suggested writing a score by hand, I pulled out an old score I had written by hand. It's a violin score for Meditation (Thais). I've copied part of it to illustrate some of this.

In red circles you see "sul E, sul A". That means to play these notes on the E or A string. The "sul A' notes in m. 8 could be played on the E string, respectively.

Every time you see a finger number, it indicates what string and position to play that note on. Notice m. 5, (D, E) - There is an E string, but E has a 2 over it. D has 1. So we play the D and the E on the A string, but with the hand shifted into "3rd position" to put 1 on note D, 2 on note E. We could have played D with the hand in first position and then the E on the E string. The last note is A (the open string) - the next note in m. 6 is B with a 1 .... telling us we're still on the A string but slide the hand back down.

These are some of the complexities of reading violin music. You do not have one spot on only one string for producing a given pitch. That's what I'm trying to show here.

Ppseudonym58 · 9 Feb

I worked as a full-time professional cellist in opera and symphony orchestras, and the violinists would often bemoan the ridiculous number of ledger lines. So I'm just repeating what they indicated. Speaking for myself, I would much rather have an 8va indication than lengthy excursions into multiple ledger line land, except for brief passages. (But we cellists have the advantage of both tenor and even treble clef, which pretty much ensures that you can stay mostly "on-staff".)
Here are a couple of typical rapid passages that I remember the violinists complaining about. The Dvorak doesn't use an 8va, and the Dukas does. To my mind the latter is easier to read. But I will stop posting to this thread at this point as I fear that I am pulling it off topic in a direction away from piano notation!

Ppseudonym58 · 9 Feb

WieWaldi · 9 Feb

If I would layout that notes, I would set 8va, starting at line 5, bar 5, right after the break.
If I would be a violinist, I would prefer my layout. No matter, what reasons some teachers and pro-violinists come up to explain why this is bad.

MRC · 9 Feb

MRC For a violinist, the place of a note on the page is associated with a place on the string

keystring This is absolutely incorrect.

I beg to differ. Maybe I could have put it more precisely: the place of a note on the page is associated with a particular position on any string on which it can be played. Of course this position is different depending on the string in question.
I used to be a cellist, and I can still feel my reflexes when I look at cello music: if I see a certain passage that could be played either on the D or the G string, for instance, I will instantly feel where my left hand should go, depending on which string I had decided to use for the passage.

The important thing is this: if I see 8va written above that passage, I don't instantly know where those notes are on any particular string. The best thing for cello is to use one of the other clefs: the tenor clef has the wonderful property of being set exactly a fifth above the bass clef, and the bottom line of the treble clef is a fifth above the top line of the bass clef: for an instrument tuned in fifths, this is most convenient. But often it's better for the continuity of a phrase not to change clefs in the middle. An 8va sign also beaks the continuity. In this case, I prefer ledger lines.

pseudonym58 I worked as a full-time professional cellist in opera and symphony orchestras, and the violinists would often bemoan the ridiculous number of ledger lines.

It's interesting how our experiences differ. I was a Kapellmeister in various German opera theatres for many years and the violinists usually hated 8va signs. A particular case in point: in 2004 I was conducting rehearsals for Crazy For You and the violins were having trouble with a particular passage because of the changes between ledger lines and 8va. I asked the concertmaster if they would be happier if I wrote out all the passage with ledger lines and no 8va signs – he said that they most certainly would be, so I did just that and was warmly thanked for it. I've kept that page: here it is!

MRC · 9 Feb

keystring When I look at violin music, it doesn't often get higher than a few ledger lines except for advanced music with shifts into high positions. Reading is also less crucial than piano

If you audition as a violinist for a British orchestra, you will find that reading is absolutely crucial.

Animisha · 9 Feb

WieWaldi , I would set 8va,

Instead of using 8va, which creates all these lines everywhere, I would use a clef with an 8 (or a 15) above. I discovered these clefs when using Musescore, and I think that for long passages with notes either (very) high above or below the five lines, they are perfect.

WieWaldi · 9 Feb

Animisha This just another 8va notation. I personally like it, but not everyone is a fan of it. Sam pointed out, this small 8 above or below the cfef sign is easy to overlook for old eyes.

Ppseudonym58 · 9 Feb

@MRC
I have done some arranging for piano and also for strings, and it's very important to place an 8va properly so that it doesn't break up a line any more than necessary. Placement after a rest, if possible, is best.

MRC · 9 Feb

WieWaldi Sam pointed out, this small 8 above or below the cfef sign is easy to overlook for old eyes

Not only for old ones. I've seen competent young readers with excellent eyesight get tripped up by these clefs.

There are many cases where one of these clefs is implied, but a normal treble or bass clef is used. In a lot of choral music, the tenor part is written in treble clef, but everybody knows that it should sound an octave lower. Similarly, piccolo parts are written in treble clef, but sound an octave higher. And contrabass parts are usually written in bass clef, but sound an octave lower. Some editions use one of the clefs with the little 8 above or below, but many just don't bother.

Kkeystring · 9 Feb

MRC I beg to differ. Maybe I could have put it more precisely: the place of a note on the page is associated with a particular position on any string on which it can be played.

Well that I agree with. But what you wrote made it sound as if a note only has one single location. That is true for piano or any keyboard, but not string instruments. The problem was with your wording.

MRC The important thing is this: if I see 8va written above that passage, I don't instantly know where those notes are on any particular string.

I felt iffy about the 8va idea as well. When I saw a D with 8va somewhere up there, my reflex had my hand go to the A string because there's an association. I would have played an octave too low.

MRC If you audition as a violinist for a British orchestra, you will find that reading is absolutely crucial.

I would think so. But I rarely saw notation or reading discussed in violin fora, whereas it's always discussed in piano fora. I cannot see reading as a crucial problem and the reasons for that are rather clear. I didn't complete my thoughts either, it seems.