Getting worse and I finally understand why!

Animisha

Seeker I might be able to help.

I must have written my OP unclearly. I understand WHY this is happening, and therefore, I also know what I can do about it. I don't need help. I am just so happy that I discovered this, and I thought, maybe somebody else also finds that their pieces are slowly deteriorating the more they play them - instead of getting more solid.

Nightowl

Animisha I think perhaps boredom is a factor - when you've played a piece so many times it's hard forcing yourself to concentrate on it. Or perhaps your teacher is giving you stretch pieces that are just slightly too much of a stretch for you?

Also, from what I understand you've had a lot to cope with recently - these things take time to recover from. You don't need to polish any piece if you don't want to - maybe playing some easy pieces would be a nice break from stretch pieces?

Sgisela

Animisha I also think what might be contributing is that it takes a certain amount of bandwidth to think about and implement the corrections from lessons, and this can ‘unmask’ other issues. At least, I’m pretty sure this happens with me. When I start to focus on an issue that’s been brought up in class, other issues (that I previously had been oblivious to) start to emerge.

I don’t tend to think of this as the piece ‘getting worse,’ but rather the process of working through issues, sequentially.

pianoloverus

Animisha Seeker I might be able to help.

I must have written my OP unclearly. I understand WHY this is happening, and therefore, I also know what I can do about it. I don't need help. I am just so happy that I discovered this, and I thought, maybe somebody else also finds that their pieces are slowly deteriorating the more they play them - instead of getting more solid.

If I understand your opening post, I think you may have assumed a reason which may or may not be correct. Let's assume for the sake of argument we don't know the reason for the first time you made the mistake. The second time you make the mistake I don't think it would be correct to say that practicing that mistake was is the reason you made it. If you make that mistake 5 or 10 times mostly in a row then maybe you've been practicing the mistake. So the root cause of the mistake might not be practicing it. You are correct in thinking that if you make the same mistake at least few times you should definitely try practicing the passage at probably a slower tempo and if that doesn't work try and figure out what's causing the mistake. If you find yourself making different random mistakes each time you play through a piece or even a section of the piece, then you could try playing the the whole piece or sections or even single measures of it more slowly. If it's particularly difficult section, that's when most people start practicing it hands separately.

Animisha

Nightowl Also, from what I understand you've had a lot to cope with recently - these things take time to recover from. You don't need to polish any piece if you don't want to - maybe playing some easy pieces would be a nice break from stretch pieces?

This is very sweet of you Nightowl, but I am fine. 🥰

Jane

A few pages from Josef Hofmann's little book offer some advice:

JosefHofmannSlowlyToFixErrors

JosefHofmannSlowlyTwiceForEachPerformance

Sidokar

Animisha I dont think at all that the reason why you make mistakes is because you learn them. That could happend when you make the same mistake a number of times and you dont realize you made a mistake. And when you do realize you have indeed internalized the mouvement. If you make a mistake and you know it is one, you dont learn it just because you have made it once or twice. Of course any mistake must be corrected. Now if you cant play that section without making that same mistake again and again then there is a technical issue you need to fix.

pianoloverus

Sidokar This is exactly correct and what I was trying to say in an earlier post. If someone misreads a note or doesn't realize they've made a mistake, then one could theoretically practice it. But if one realizes a mistake has been made and makes that mistake a couple of times, one should do something about the mistake BEFORE one reaches the point where one has practiced it.

Animisha

Sidokar I dont think at all that the reason why you make mistakes is because you learn them.

I beg to differ. I am very sure that I learn my mistakes, because I am busy recording and I want to try to make another recording and not spend time unlearning the mistake. Even when I make the same mistake twice!

I think, -This was just a coincidence, I made this great recording five days ago, so I do know how to play this piece. I can just try again.

But no!
And I am already reaping the benefits of spending time fixing the mistakes. 😊

pianoloverus

Animisha idokar I dont think at all that the reason why you make mistakes is because you learn them.

I beg to differ. I am very sure that I learn my mistakes, because I am busy recording and I want to try to make another recording and not spend time unlearning the mistake. Even when I make the same mistake twice!

What Sidokar and I are saying Is you shouldn't intentionally practice your mistakes. The only time one should get to the point of practicing a mistake is when one is misreading a note and only discovers that after playing the incorrect note many times. If one is aware of making the same mistake two or three times then one should always try and unlearn the mistake as soon as possible. This might be accomplished by playing the passage more slowly, hands separately, or figuring out if there is some technical problem with the passage and then how to deal with it.

Animisha

pianoloverus

Do you really think that I intentionally learn my mistakes?????? 😲

From my OP:

Animisha After five days, the mistakes are no longer random. They are repeated, and I need to sit down and work with those passages that I could play perfectly two weeks ago.
I don't really feel like it, but I have to.
And hopefully, next time when I am in the same situation, I'll be more alert and stop myself in time from learning my mistakes...

pianoloverus

Animisha pianoloverus

Do you really think that I intentionally learn my mistakes?????? 😲

From my OP:

Animisha After five days, the mistakes are no longer random. They are repeated, and I need to sit down and work with those passages that I could play perfectly two weeks ago.
I don't really feel like it, but I have to.
And hopefully, next time when I am in the same situation, I'll be more alert and stop myself in time from learning my mistakes...

I said in my post intentionally practice your mistakes but maybe I didn't make that idea clear. No one intentionally learned a mistake. By intentionally practice I mean not doing something about the same mistake if you make it two or three times. When you said " I am very sure that I learn my mistakes, because I am busy recording and I want to try to make another recording and not spend time unlearning the mistake. Even when I make the same mistake twice!" That's what I and Sidokar think you should avoid when practicing. If you wait too long to unlearn a mistake then you end up practicing the mistake. In other words my suggestion is not to be so concerned about making another recording right away but be more concerned about fixing mistakes before they become a learned habit.

Animisha

pianoloverus That's what I and Sidokar think you should avoid when practicing. If you wait too long to unlearn a mistake then you end up practicing the mistake.

You keep on advising me something that I already had understood in my Very First Post! Once again, I quote myself:

Animisha next time when I am in the same situation, I'll be more alert and stop myself in time from learning my mistakes...

pianoloverus

@"Animisha"#OK I do see now that I was concentrating on most of your post but not thinking about your last sentence. Sorry for my confusion. It does seem that you are now doing a good approach.

Animisha

Thank you pianoloverus 🥰

Sidokar

I think that the term "practice one's mistake" means nothing. It is one of those nice statements that the various internet teachers have created but which in fact does not teach anything but gives the feeling that they know what they are talking about. No one "learns a mistake". If you are unaware that you have consistently made the same mistake at the same place, then obviously you will continue to do so. If you are aware that you are making that consistent mistake, then it is simply because there is an obvious issue you need to fix, whatever it is. If you dont make the effort to fix the issue, then you will continue to make the mistake. Learning the mistake has not much to do with it. Obviously after a while and if you dont take any action, then playing the wrong note will become as if playing the correct one. In that case it is not that you have learnt the mistake, but simply that you have not improved your technique. There are occasionally places in the pieces I play where I do make the same mistake and I know it is there; simply I dont have the time or I choose not to invest the time to fix it and I decide to live with it. But generally, if you practice a piece and there is a recurring issue, then of course one must take the time to find why and fix the issue. But when constrained by time, it is also ok to accept temporarily the issue (if not too disturbing) and fix it at a later time. There is always a balance to be found. Of course generally speaking not fixing issues is not helping to make technical progress. But that I guess is not new.

Animisha

Sidokar I think that the term "practice one's mistake" means nothing.

That is the case for you.

But for me, I finally understood what it meant and that practising my mistakes made me less stable with pieces that I already knew well enough.

ShiroKuro

I’m struck by the fact that @Animisha has posted that she found some insight into her playing, an insight that she feels has really benefited her, and people are trying to tell her that she’s wrong about that.

That doesn’t seem helpful to me.

Animisha

Thank you ShiroKuro and Josephine 🥰
Very much appreciated.

Animisha

pianoloverus Or are you saying you made a very serious attempt to correct the mistake but were not able to and have no teacher to help you?

Animisha I practise a piece and record it. My teacher says, "Great job, just fix this and that." I practise the pointed-out parts, the whole piece, and start recording again.

I feel like I have to repeat myself ad infinitum. There is no big issue with this piece because, as I said, I have already made a good recording, except for a few things I need to fix.

I understand that this all comes from a good will and a desire to help, but:

ShiroKuro I’m struck by the fact that @Animisha has posted that she found some insight into her playing, an insight that she feels has really benefited her, and people are trying to tell her that she’s wrong about that.

Could you please just be happy for me that I now understand that when I make a second recording of a piece, and I discover that I start to make more and more mistakes instead of less and less, that this is caused be me not properly working to fix these mistakes?

Josephine

I did it with that Chopin waltz, practicing a mistake, it's very real. It was about an ornament. I couldn't fix it. It was good at first, then I don't know exactly what I did, but I practiced the phrase in the wrong way and then I couldn't play the ornament anymore.

pianoloverus

Josephine But Animisha has correctly decided to not practice mistakes anymore or at least limit how much she does this. Are you saying you still practice mistakes, meaning you realize there's a mistake but just keep playing it incorrectly? If so, I suppose that's an option but I think it makes more sense to try and figure out what's causing the mistake and correct it. Or are you saying you made a very serious attempt to correct the mistake but were not able to and have no teacher to help you? In other words, I think there's a big difference between occasionally accepting there's something you can't fix after trying several approaches versus regularly accepting mistakes. One of the most important skills in playing piano is being able to deal with problems that inevitably occur.

Josephine

So I think I exactly did what Animisha described. The phrase sounded okay, but could be improved a bit. I worked on the phrase without focusing on the ornament, thinking I can play that ornament already and it's not important now. Then the ornament got worse.