Stats about classical composers

sweelinck

Some just told me, there were about 2500 classical composers. 250 of them composed the music that is >played today.
36 composed 75% of that.
16 composed 50%.
10 composed 40%.
3 composed 20%, namely Bach, Beethoven and Mozart. And Mozart died young, if he lived longer, this number could probably rise up to 30%.

Are these percentages the percentage the of pieces still performed today, or percentages of performances of some piece by the composer?

WieWaldi

sweelinck pieces still performed today

Sophia

BartK If you decide that "classical" is from a certain date range

Agreed! Classical can be a lot of things... you can even say it's the music from a few centuries ago:

Sidokar

There are significantly more than 2500 classical composers. Imslp has nearly 30000 and it is not complete as the number grows every year.

Sgisela

Sam that’s an interesting list, Sam. There are definitely some where I’m surprised by the order. There are a few composers on your list whose orchestral writing I really enjoy, but I’m not familiar with their piano music. So I am now going to have to look them up!

Sam

Sgisela that’s an interesting list, Sam. There are definitely some where I’m surprised by the order. There are a few composers on your list whose orchestral writing I really enjoy, but I’m not familiar with their piano music. So I am now going to have to look them up!

One thing to bear in mind about my lists is that once you get below Mendelssohn or Haydn everybody gets lost in the noise. So the fact that one composer is 20th and another is 40th means very little.

Since I am an old guy, I still tend to use actual books to do research, and the best book to research piano repertoire is still Maurice Hinson's "Guide to the Pianist's Repertoire". He has passed on now, but the 4th edition has a new co-author. Want to find what some composer way down in the list wrote for piano?- its right there in Hinson's book.

Sam

Sgisela

Sam I was surprised to see Scarlatti and Scriabin as high on the list. I imagine that there are some peculiarities of Carnegie Hall that also contribute to what gets programmed.

Sam

Sgisela I was surprised to see Scarlatti and Scriabin as high on the list. I imagine that there are some peculiarities of Carnegie Hall that also contribute to what gets programmed.

There was a time not that long ago when every program would start with a Scarlatti sonata or something else Baroque. Just from my experience going to Spivey Hall in Atlanta, programs used to be more varied, with something from every period. Now they tend to have a theme - like all Schubert, or all the Chopin Etudes, or all late Beethoven and so forth.

Another thing to bear in mind with the Carnegie Hall database is that it goes back to the 1890s. That is still late Romantic. They weren't playing Debussy or Ravel in 1890. Scarlatti wasn't rediscovered until mid 20th century. Rachmaninoff started playing his own music there between the world wars. So by looking at the entire history things might be a bit skewed. A more ambitious person than myself (I am enjoying my retirement, thank you) could really do some interesting research by looking at how programs have changed over the years. Enough material there for a PhD in musicology. Or a book for music nerds...

Sam

Stub

Scott Joplin is the list, but way towards the bottom. If you were compiling a list of composers whose music got played, period, and not just in recitals, he would probably be much further up the list. Then there's the question of whether ragtime belongs in classical repertoire or elsewhere.

Sam Another thing to bear in mind with the Carnegie Hall database is that it goes back to the 1890s.

Very interesting. It would be interesting to see a plot of what got played changed over the years.

pianoloverus

In a different thread on piano world a poster did an estimate of the number of composers on the IMSLP site. They calculated it was around 50,000(Or maybe 30,000 since I just noticed Sidokar's post On this thread)
so I think the first figure for total number of classical composers mentioned in the OP is probably way too small.

sweelinck

Stub

Scott Joplin is the on list, but way towards the bottom. If you were compiling a list of composers whose music got played, period, and not just in recitals, he would probably be much further up the list.

If you include players of all levels, Bach's Anna Magdalena notebook and Schumann's Album for the Young may be the most played pieces.

I think players with the ability to play Joplin rags well have studied the music of major classical piano composers and play a diverse repertoire. There are some pianists who choose to specialize in ragtime, but I think there are far fewer of them than pianists who play traditional classical repertoire.

I do find Joplin's music to be much closer to classical piano than to jazz harmonically, as noted upthread by BartK. Joplin was influential on jazz musicians, though more through usage of rhythms than through harmony or form.

Sam

Pallas
I’m interested in this. Do you have any ideas where to look for an answer? I started studying classical piano so I have the skill to play film scores, advanced versions of American standards, and ragtime among other things. I understand that “classical” is both an umbrella term and a specific genre, and much film score music is often called “neoclassical,” but in my admittedly uninformed way I’ve been pretty focused on transferable skills, and if it’s complexity that assigns genre, lots of non-classical is plenty complex, sophisticated stuff just looking at scores. If this should be a separate topic, please say, otherwise, I might post a page from a book I just got of ragtime written during the 1970s revival to see what you advanced pianists might say about its flavor (is it classical, why or why not?)

At the University I attended (and probably all schools in the US), ragtime was accepted for required recitals as a modern piece. At least Scott Joplin was. This was at the undergraduate level. Might be too easy for graduate level recitals. And this was a typical regional US university, not a conservatory or a prestigious school.

BartK

Pallas
"Modern" is an umbrella term that covers a vast variety of musical styles. I don't really agree on putting all 20th century music in one bucket. Each style has specific challenges.

Ragtime is harmonically very "classical" but the main difficulty is the rhythm, especially the typical ragged syncopation.

Film music is relatively straightforward (once you reach a certain level) because it often has a more transparent texture and lots of repeating patterns, much like the classical era but with more modern harmonies.

Pop is harmonically simple (although unlike rag it uses modern harmonies) but has a lot of rhythmic difficulties. There is rarely a pop tune that doesn't syncopate. Almost all pop is on the off beat (2 and 4) and that is usually emphasized strongly in the LH while the melody is syncopated.

Jazz is hard. Harmonically, melodically, rhythmically. And there's the whole improvisation thing too. Maybe I'll figure it out one day... 😉

pseudonym58

One other factor (if it hasn't been mentioned already) is that a number of the composers on that "top 100" either wrote very little for solo piano (Wagner), or lived at a time before the piano as we know it today existed.
Is this chart really reflective of solo keyboard music of all types?

ShiroKuro

I love the way this discussion has shifted to what counts as classical...

Re being born in the US, how about Billy Joel? And no, I don't mean his pop music, I mean his solo, classical piano music.

I think this is it:

ShiroKuro

OTOH, there's this, I Gironi, by Einaudi, which I always think of as having a very "popular music" feel, not pop music, but modern contemporary solo piano that I would call more "popular" than "classical." I think it's the chord progressions for me. Give a listen and tell me what you think:

Stub

I have seen ragtime categorized as straddling both the classical and jazz genres. As Bart said above, there is a classical feel to the music, but the syncopations seem to many people to be foreign or exotic to classical music. Even amongst ragtime, where a piece fits can vary considerably. Compare Maple Leaf Rag with Solace (both by Joplin). Where would Graceful Ghost (Bolcom) fit? BTW, Graceful Ghost is one of my all-time favorite pieces of music. But it is way too difficult for me to play. I started to learn Solace (another beautiful piece) several years ago, put it aside, and came back to it last fall and got much further with it, but it's still not 100%. I admit to being somewhat ragtime-rhythm challenged. 😀

Sidokar

In fact imslp doesnot have all the composers of classical music. It has only only those for which we have works in a written form. But numerous composers either never published anything or their work was lost. So the 30000 can be considered as a minimum. Of course many of them are minor composers. And the question of what can be considered as classical is also to be factored.

Sam

Pallas Bolcom won the pulitzer prize for his music and was a composition professor at the University of Washington. But even better, Marc Andre Hamelin recorded all of his rags. So they are a part of the "classical" repertoire. But so is his atonal music, like the etudes. Here is his non-tonal rag - all the elements of ragtime, but not tonal:

sweelinck

Sam

I counted that I've played at least one keyboard work by 13 "classical" composers not on the list.

Interesting that Poulenc and Milhaud are the only members of Les Six who are represented on the list.

ShiroKuro

Ithaca My brain automatically categorizes this as (popular) modern contemporary and definitely not classical, but I can't tell you why. (I could theorize, but really I'd be guessing.)

I’m glad you hear it that way too! I do think it’s the chord progressions, but I could be wrong. It’s been a while since I’ve played it, maybe I should it back in my practice rotation and see if I think of it the same way.

On a different note - wow, I had no idea that Billy Joel was capable of this level of composition. When I think of him, I just think of that spooky drugged-out photo of him on the Piano Man cassette. Thanks for posting the Fantasies & Delusions link.

You’re welcome! When I was a kid (in junior high maybe?) I was really into Billy Joel (his rock/pop stuff). I started piano as an adult, in 1999. The score and recording of Fantasies and Delusions was released in 2001, my mother got it for me as a present. There was (and still is, I imagine) no way I could play these pieces, too advanced for me. But I think the pieces are wonderful. Somehow, to me, the pieces sound both contemporary and very traditionally “classical” at the same time. Whatever that means. 😅

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