Playing between black keys?

iternabe

I've noticed recently that I might have a reluctance to play between the black keys. I have slim fingers, and they fit in small spaces, so that's not the problem. Also, when a chord has short fingers on the black key, I can play them with the long fingers landing further up on the white keys between the black keys. So I can definitely do it when necessary. However, when this is optional, I have a tendency to land my fingers below the black key. Today, in the piece I am working on, it's causing me problems.

In measure 3, I want to play the B-D to A#-C# with minimal gap. Playing BD with 53 finger low on the white keys, then reaching up with 24 finger feels very awkward. If I play the BD 53 finger higher, between the black keys, I can have 24 fingers pre-positioned on the A#-C# keys and transition much smoother. Since BD is the first notes, I can simply remind myself to play them higher. But then later in the piece, there is this:

From measure 18 to 19, the B-C-BD slur, my fingers naturally lands all on the part of white keys below the black keys. This again cause the next A#-C# an awkward reach.

I suppose there are technical exercises for double thirds that address my issue here. As a beginner, I am not going to try those yet. However, I am interested in hearing how you play below and above the black keys, and if you ever encounter problems like I described here in your early years of learning.

Ithaca

iternabe I have a tendency to land my fingers below the black key.

Are you comfortable playing a measure or two with your eyes closed? If so - pick a piece with a fair number of sharps/flats, and try playing it blind, only opening your eyes as necessary. I find I naturally move my hands deeper into the black keys under these conditions - the feel of the raised black keys offers additional location information to my brain.

Separately, have you tried playing scales farther into the keys? It’s good to accustom yourself to using the whole key length; moving in and out fluidly as you play is important.

Animisha

iternabe I suppose there are technical exercises for double thirds that address my issue here. As a beginner, I am not going to try those yet.

Hi Iternabe, I would encourage you to reconsider this.
I watched Denis Zhdanov video about double thirds, and it proved to be invaluable to me. Every single time when I play double thirds, I remind myself of his way of approaching them, and it helps a lot in playing them in a relaxed way.
I watched this video from the start, and actually practised the Lemoine piece that he mentioned in the beginning. However, if you are curious, you can start at 3:00 when he talks about an etude by Liszt. This etude is probably beyond your present skills, but instead of the Liszt piece, you can use the thirds from m3-4 in your piece in order to practise them in the way that Denis suggests.
He really does it step by step, starting with how to play just one third at the time, then playing them non-legato, and then starting to play them legato, not all three thirds, but just two of them. Very good video!

Ithaca

iternabe In measure 3, I want to play the B-D to A#-C# with minimal gap. Playing BD with 53 finger low on the white keys, then reaching up with 24 finger feels very awkward. If I play the BD 53 finger higher, between the black keys, I can have 24 fingers pre-positioned on the A#-C# keys and transition much smoother.

I just sat down to play this. My instinctive position is for 3-5 (BD) to be in the all-white section (though 3 is pretty close to the black keys), and then a simple rotation of the wrist forward and up brings the 2-4 fingers to A#-C#. Of course, "simple" in this context probably depends on the relative lengths of your fingers, and your ability to lift your 4th fingers. But that forward-and-up rotation is a motion that's good to have in your tool chest.

I find MRC's fingering of 1-4 to 2-3 to require less work in terms of just hitting the keys (b/c you don't have 4 up with 5 down), but it's more difficult for me to play fingers 1-4 with equal force. (I've been having issues with using my thumb evenly - not sure if it's a wrist rotation or finger muscle imbalance problem.)

I hope you don't mind me saying the following: listen carefully to how you're landing on each note as you play. I've noticed in your recordings that as you speed up, you develop a tendency to hammer the keys, and you lunge more when there's a jump. This is totally normal. (And something I am currently suffering from as well, so it's not just a newbie issue.) As the brain has to process more (more notes/second, bigger jumps), it's natural to drop focus on other things, but you don't want to fall out of the habit of hearing the difference between getting your fingers on the correct keys vs producing the sound that you're aiming for. (I fell out of the habit, and it's a long and painful recovery for me now.)

MRC

The first thing I would say for this particular piece is that the printed fingering is not the most comfortable. I would play those first two chords in the right hand with 4-1 and 3-2. In measure 18, play B and C with 2 and 3 so you can once more play those two chords with 4-1 and 3-2.

If you want to keep the printed fingering, then when you come to measure 19 just slide your hand towards the fallboard whilst playing the first chord, so your 2nd and 4th fingers will be touching the black notes before you play them.

If possible, put shorter fingers on white notes and longer fingers on black notes.

iternabe

MRC If you want to keep the printed fingering, then when you come to measure 19 just slide your hand towards the fallboard whilst playing the first chord, so your 2nd and 4th fingers will be touching the black notes before you play them.

I am glad you said that. This morning I was experimenting and realized sliding fingers up (while holding the keys down) is an option. But that definitely will take some practice for me to do it with ease.

Thank you for the alternative fingering suggestions as well!

iternabe

Ithaca I don’t look at my hands when playing, unless there is a jump.

Good idea about scales. I have learned a number of scales that use black keys. Currently I am on F# major and D# minor. I think when playing black keys I only go as far as minimally necessary? My hands do move in and out, but not very close to the fallboard. In fact, only recently when trying all black key arpeggios did I realize that fingers 2 and 3 need to go almost to the farther end of the black key in order to make thumb under more accurate.

Of the scales I learned so far, I do remember B minor harmonic giving me the similar problem as the one I encountered here. The right hand fingers 2-3-4 on keys F#-G-A# feels more awkward if my finger 3 lands lower (below black key) on the white key, but if I try to land finger 3 higher (closer to fallboard) then it interferes with changing hand position (because black key gets in the way). If I remember correctly, it was more of a problem going up than coming back down.

BartK

I agree with MRC about the fingering. Sliding the hand up or down while holding down notes is a useful technique so it's good to practice it too but for this piece it's not really necessary.

iternabe

BartK I agree with MRC about the fingering. Sliding the hand up or down while holding down notes is a useful technique so it's good to practice it too but for this piece it's not really necessary.

Thanks! I feel sliding up while holding two notes required my fingers to be relaxed enough to move but still has enough pressure to keep both keys down. I remember hearing the comment that one downside of digital piano folded actions is it is not as easy to hold keys down as compared to acoustic actions on a grand piano. Still, no excuse for me as I just need to learn this with practice.

BartK

iternabe Good idea about scales. I have learned a number of scales that use black keys. Currently I am on F# major and D# minor. I think when playing black keys I only go as far as minimally necessary? My hands do move in and out, but not very close to the fallboard. In fact, only recently when trying all black key arpeggios did I realize that fingers 2 and 3 need to go almost to the farther end of the black key in order to make thumb under more accurate.

Do you practice arpeggios and chord cadences in those keys too? Since all the notes of the triad are black keys you have to play the thumb on a black key and that's a great exercise in playing close to the fallboard.

iternabe

BartK Do you practice arpeggios and chord cadences in those keys too? Since all the notes of the triad are black keys you have to play the thumb on a black key and that's a great exercise in playing close to the fallboard.

I do - that’s when I found out how close to the fallboard finger 2 and 3 must land to make the thumb under move securely.

iternabe

Animisha Thank you for the Zhdanov video. I'll watch it this weekend.

When I say I am not going to try double thirds exercise, I did not mean that I don't think they will be useful. It's just that at the level I am and with the time I have I need to choose what exercise to do and what to leave to later stages. Double thirds is that I thought one of those "I will do it some days (or years) later", if that makes sense.

Bellyman

I haven't cataloged it but there are some piano keyboards that seem to have just a tad more space between those black keys than others. It's nice for those of us who have fat fingers to find such a piano. Otherwise, we kinda do the best we can.

On an acoustic piano, a good technician might be able to nudge the black keys just a touch towards one side or the other in such a way as to create just a tiny bit more space between the black keys. It's not a lot but an extra 1/16" might feel significant to a player who struggles for enough room. I don't think that's possible on most electronic keyboards.

iternabe

Ithaca I just sat down to play this. My instinctive position is for 3-5 (BD) to be in the all-white section (though 3 is pretty close to the black keys), and then a simple rotation of the wrist forward and up brings the 2-4 fingers to A#-C#. Of course, "simple" in this context probably depends on the relative lengths of your fingers, and your ability to lift your 4th fingers. But that forward-and-up rotation is a motion that's good to have in your tool chest.

The "hold the notes and slide fingers up" thing will take more practice. I can do it when play just right hand only. But once added the left hand, the right hand refuse to do that. So for now, I am doing @Ithaca 's forward-and-up rotation - or so I think. I just made a recording of where I am so far.

iternabe

Ithaca I hope you don't mind me saying the following: listen carefully to how you're landing on each note as you play. I've noticed in your recordings that as you speed up, you develop a tendency to hammer the keys, and you lunge more when there's a jump. This is totally normal. (And something I am currently suffering from as well, so it's not just a newbie issue.) As the brain has to process more (more notes/second, bigger jumps), it's natural to drop focus on other things, but you don't want to fall out of the habit of hearing the difference between getting your fingers on the correct keys vs producing the sound that you're aiming for. (I fell out of the habit, and it's a long and painful recovery for me now.)

@Ithaca I don't mind at all. In fact, I appreciate you pointing that out. I think this tendency to hammer the keys when speed up is something I sort of noticed in the back of my mind. But having you spell this out really help bring this problem to the front and help me think more clearly about it and what to do. Thank you!

When I practice scales, I usually start at 1 note per beat and play them very soft. But as the run progresses to 3 or 4 notes per beat, I will have a hard time keep the volume down. It is as you said when my fingers feel so focused on making the move they lost the ability to control the touch.

I wonder if the recording you hear this is the Downton Abbey one that I uploaded several versions. I kept practicing that piece for a long time, bringing the tempo back down and focus on dynamics and articulation. What I realized is basically I was not ready for that piece. I was not playing the left hand pattern with ease, and my right hand was not truly in sync with the left hand. It's that kind of flummoxed, scrambling feeling that make the right hand melody losing the subtlety it needed. I had to really slow down my tempo a lot and work on the coordination. It helped, but I am still not totally there.

Ithaca

iternabe Is your bench a bit low? Just watched your video now, and it seems to me that your right elbow is low, which would make both sliding-forward and rotating-forward motions more difficult. The tops of your wrists do indeed look level, so I'm not sure how to interpret what I'm seeing.

Ithaca

iternabe I wonder if the recording you hear this is the Downton Abbey one that I uploaded several versions. I kept practicing that piece for a long time, bringing the tempo back down and focus on dynamics and articulation. What I realized is basically I was not ready for that piece. I was not playing the left hand pattern with ease

Your faster Downton Abbey version is where I noticed that the hammering was consistent, yes. It shows up elsewhere, with pretty high correlation between speed and loss of touch. How one overcomes that, I don't know. I keep trying to recall how I got over my first real speed barrier when I was a kid - I know lots of Hanon was fundamentally involved - but I don't know if I just couldn't play faster without making a ton of mistakes before I got into Hanon, or if I was hammering, as well. I don't recall my teacher ever talking to me about my touch, beyond telling me to play certain notes more delicately or heavily, etc., so I suspect the issue was a ton of mistakes and an inability to play evenly fast. (At that time in my life, it was incredibly difficult for me to play something that I thought was "ugly". I couldn't stand dissonance, and I think it's likely that I would have felt that hammering was "ugly", too - probably why it took me so many attempts to get into the Hanon groove.)

Now, I've hit an absurdly slow speed barrier with my left hand, which I am hoping is merely tension- and technique-related. But I don't know, which means I don't know how to address it.

I'm glad to hear you stopped pushing the speed on the Downton Abbey theme. I don't know that it's right to say that you're not ready for that piece - I quite enjoyed your slower version - but I think it's fair to say that you're not ready for that piece at whatever the stated tempo is.

The thing is, you've progressed so quickly and so well on your own, that I'm actually a bit worried. It's clear that you have a lot of potential - an innate sense of coordination and musicality, plus the fast-twitch muscles that every good pianist requires - but it also means that you can get yourself into trouble a lot faster than your merely above-average piano student. You're obviously extremely observant and careful, but you seem to be so diligent about practicing that if you miss something, you could embed a bad habit that's hard to fix very rapidly. I know finding a teacher is difficult (I haven't even begun looking myself), but I really wish you had someone guiding you carefully.

With weekly lessons, even with holidays and whatnot that disturb the schedule, it's hard for students to get that far out of whack with a good teacher. I remember at one point ages ago, I was playing some arrangement of a Chopin piece with a lot of double thirds. Out of nowhere, my teacher barked - "Are you playing them at the same time?" I was really startled, and tried that section again, listening carefully. My teacher also listened intently, then said, "I think it's okay." Then she fixed me with one of her piercing stares, and said, "DON'T let them get out of alignment." After that I was very careful, always slowing down if I wasn't sure if I was playing them cleanly. Many years later, I allowed myself to get sloppy - I like speed, and I decided that I just didn't care if I didn't have good precision for a bit - but I've never been able to play double thirds again cleanly. (I really, really need a teacher, to undo what I've done solo.)

Animisha

iternabe When I say I am not going to try double thirds exercise, I did not mean that I don't think they will be useful. It's just that at the level I am and with the time I have I need to choose what exercise to do and what to leave to later stages. Double thirds is that I thought one of those "I will do it some days (or years) later", if that makes sense.

It makes perfect sense! Just one more thing. The part of the video that I recommend does not so much have technical exercises for double thirds, as it shows a way of how to learn double thirds.

iternabe

And I just found this kid sliding his little fingers up and down the keys so effortlessly 😳

iternabe

Ithaca I think it's the camera angle, plus looking down from the top the right arm is kind of angled towards the left, making the right elbow looks lower than it really is.

I just went to my piano and took some measurements. The white key on my DP is 30" from the floor. My bench height is at 20". When I let my elbow naturally drop right next to my torso, it's 29 1/4" from the floor. However, I sit in the way that when I stretch my arm straight forward and hold fists, my knuckles will just touch the wallboard. This way, when I place my hands on the white keys, my entire forearm is raised a bit, and my elbow is at 30 1/4" (1/4" above the white keys surface).

These measurements may sound too nerdy. But if you remember my other thread on flat hand arches, this is the area I am paying attention and observing any differences. I used to sit about 1 inch higher than I am now. I find the current height make holding the hand arch easier.

Ithaca

iternabe These measurements may sound too nerdy. But if you remember my other thread on flat hand arches, this is the area I am paying attention and observing any differences. I used to sit about 1 inch higher than I am now. I find the current height make holding the hand arch easier.

Not too nerdy. However, I am concerned that a 1" difference in your seat height makes such a difference in your hand arch. The thing is, I (and most people I knew) grew up having very few options for seat height, because the most common choices were a hard wooden bench with zero adjustments, or a hard wooden chair with zero adjustments. At best we might have had a cushion; these variable-height scissors-truss benches were for rich people only. Quite possibly I never saw one outside of a catalog until I was in my mid-twenties. Anyhow, we learned to acclimate to whatever was available. Even now, with my messed-up hands, if I need to play a quick duet with my children, or do a quick demo, I often do it standing up, with no corresponding collapse in hand-arch.

What I'm wondering is if there is some sort of hand- or forearm-strengthening exercises that you should be doing in order to make it much more difficult for your hand to collapse.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't position your bench height carefully - not at all. Preventing strain is important, for sure. But I am curious about why your arch is so sensitive to seat height, and if that sensitivity points to an underlying weakness that should be addressed.

BartK

Ithaca What I'm wondering is if there is some sort of hand- or forearm-strengthening exercises that you should be doing in order to make it much more difficult for your hand to collapse.

Did you see my post here?
https://forum.pianotell.com/d/1300-flat-hand-arch-problem-and-fix/2

I learned this exercise from my teacher.