thepianoplayer416 Not everybody like playing with a metronome.

I used to practice with a metronome a lot back when I was working on beginner technique challenges. These days, I still use the metronome, but mainly for specific purposes or goals and across restricted sections of the music. A few measures, one passage, that kind of thing.

But I don't think metronome practice works work well when you're playing a piece in its entirety (as I am with this piece, since I'm going to be performing it in less than a week now).

What would work quite nicely would be to have a conductor. But we don't do that with solo piano music. 😃

Playing all the right notes depends on how well you know your music.

Certainly that's part of it, but in a performance situation, it also depends on one's presence of mind. For me at least.

      Animisha I tend to speed up in more difficult passages. It is like I want to be done with it as quickly as possible. Of course, this speeding up makes the risk that I made a mistake in that passage bigger, not smaller.

      It's funny, isn't it, how we humans can get in our own way! 😃

          ShiroKuro It's funny, isn't it, how we humans can get in our own way! 😃

          I think that we humans may have been selected for the strategy of "holding our breath and rushing through". When encountering predators, this might be the best way to silently and quickly get away from them. When crossing rivers or swamps without being able to swim, when sprinting through natural wildfires, when navigating volcanic zones, those who held their breath and rushed survived and reproduced, while those who took a deep breath and calmly strode forward, were killed.

          *
          ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...

            Part of playing to tempo (and only a part) is that you have to internalize the music and make it yours. As long as it's external you'll have issues with rushing because you don't "feel" or "relate to" the music other than as a mechanical task.

            Or so I was told by a violin teacher many many many moons ago.

              @ShiroKuro i do exactly the same thing — rushing through tricky parts, and this gets worse in stress situations. But it’s gotten better with awareness.

              I actually think the metronome can be very helpful with this, namely as a check on your sense of timing and to develop an awareness of where you are pushing the tempo/rushing — and to help train yourself not to speed up in those sections. I don’t play with the metronome all the time, but I certainly use it in this way, playing through whole pieces.

              Also if your teacher is advising you to play more slowly, the metronome may be a great way to do this. Without a metronome, the instinct to play faster can be very strong and hard to resist, and a metronome can remind you where you really want to be.

              ShiroKuro But I don't think metronome practice works work well when you're playing a piece in its entirety (as I am with this piece, since I'm going to be performing it in less than a week now).

              I find playing through a piece in its entirety with metronome very beneficial. Don't fight it: think of it as a friendly drummer who's keeping you in the groove. People are often afraid that the metronome will make their playing rigid and unmusical, but if you relax and let the metronome handle the tempo while you handle all the rest — phrasing, accents, expression, dynamics, pedalling... — in fact the opposite is true.

              I've practiced with a metronome the day before a concert, both as soloist and with chamber music partners. Recently I played the Fauré piano trio, and in the last two rehearsals we played the last movement all the way through with the metronome set to the speed Fauré specifies. It cured all three of us of rushing at certain points, and it was more fun, since we could concentrate on the dance-like character of the piece without worrying that somebody would disturb the tempo. Having played it through a couple of times like this, we knew where to pay particular attention and we felt much more secure. In the concert it went very well indeed.

                Player1 internalize the music and make it yours

                I think this is also really important.

                It’s also not “one and done” … what I mean is, internalizing the music isn’t something you do once and then you don’t have to worry about it again. Which is why performance situations can be hard. Because it’s almost like you have to recommit to the music, recommit to that internalized attachment, every time you play.

                    Like @MRC I find playing an entire piece through with the metronome to be helpful. The spots where I have trouble playing with the metronome are exactly the spots where I have rhythmic or tempo issues, and doing the work of being able to play with the metronome is what fixes the the issues. Playing with the metronome helps train my brain to keep the beat steady throughout the piece.

                    I usually play without the metronome. What typically provokes metronome use for me is listening to a recording of my playing and realizing that there's a problem. To check this I clap or tap the beat when listening. If my playing doesn't follow a steady beat (when I'm not intentionally slowing down or speeding up) I'll do some metronome practice on those sections as well as the entire piece.

                    Once I've addressed rhythmic and tempo issues I go back to playing without the metronome. At that point any rubato becomes more intentional and I can feel it better.

                    If I'm preparing for a recording or performance I will continue to check myself from time to time by playing through with the metronome.

                    @rogerch and @MRC ok, you’ve convinced me, I’ll get my metronome out tonight at practice! 😁

                    I’ll report back!

                    BTW when playing the entire piece w metronome, what do you do when you have a fermata, rit, or other tempo variations? How do you get back in sync the metronome without unnatural pauses?

                      I suppose if you use an electronic metronome, you can put it in silent mode? The lights will show you the beat, but no clicking sound may allow gradually getting back in sync without rushing?

                      ShiroKuro BTW when playing the entire piece w metronome, what do you do when you have a fermata, rit, or other tempo variations? How do you get back in sync the metronome without unnatural pauses?

                      When I play with metronome I don't make tempo variations. For a fermata I hold it an even number of beats.

                        ShiroKuro BTW when playing the entire piece w metronome, what do you do when you have a fermata, rit, or other tempo variations? How do you get back in sync the metronome without unnatural pauses?

                        I ignore the metronome during the tempo variations and find it usually quite easy to stretch the fermata or rit to fit in with the metronome, so I can start the new phrase together with the metronome again.
                        It is harder with longer tempo variations. Finding a YT recording of someone playing these tempo variations really well and alternating between playing together with them and playing alone helps a lot.

                        *
                        ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...

                          ShiroKuro

                          The thing about metronomes is that they're supposed to be a teaching tool to get us to count internally. If you have to rely on a metronome to keep steady then you don't have an internal sense of timing.

                          WWII soldiers and POW's learned to count seconds in their heads and got extremely accurate at it because they practiced it until it was second nature. That's what all the basic beginner clapping and tapping exercises were designed to do - teach you internal timing.

                          Regarding rit and other tempo variations; if your metronome is silent or you don't use a bell to indicate the first beat, then it doesn't matter which "tick" you use to pick up for the beat. It's just timing and 1,2,3,4 is exactly the same tempo as 3,4,1,2.

                              Player1 If you have to rely on a metronome to keep steady then you don't have an internal sense of timing.

                              This comment may have been meant as a general comment and may not have been directed at me, but I am defensive enough I feel the need to say that, in general, I have a very good internal sense of timing.

                              😅

                              But obviously, control of tempo variations — not just control of tempo — is an aspect of musicality, along with dynamics, that is an area with endless possibility for improvement and polishing.

                                  ShiroKuro I am with you on this one. Rhythm is an area I have the least amount of difficulty with. Yet I too notice a tendency to slowly speed up as a piece is played through, especially when I purposely start slower for practice.

                                  When I think more about this problem, I wonder if this is similar to relative pitch vs absolute pitch. Keeping perfect rhythm in a phrase and through several phrases is like relative pitch. But keeping a steady and specific beat (at what exact tempo desired/chosen) for a long time, or come back to that tempo from rubato/fermata, is more like absolute pitch, and therefore harder. Also I feel overall memory of aural impression of piece also influence this because for pieces that I know well it’s even harder to play it at different tempo.

                                      ShiroKuro

                                      I wasn't trying to point a finger at anyone. All I was saying is that, in general, if you have to rely on an external device to keep time, you need to work on your internal time sense.

                                      Here's an observation; clocks have been around a long time but music has been around longer. Without a machine to keep time, how would musicians learn and keep tempo? It's an internal thing, not an external one.

                                          ShiroKuro And what we concluded was that I may be sort of rushing to cover up the mistake, or replace it with correct notes, or rush to the next passage.

                                          I had a bit of a "self examination" about this very topic not all that long ago. I usually play with a drummer so they normally try to keep a pretty steady beat going. There are times when any in the group start "rushing", not sure of all of the reasons. But I did get to thinking about me and why I do it when I do it.

                                          There were several things I observed about myself. I think the #1 thing I did that turned into "rushing" was actually an uncertainty about the next note and "feeling for it" a bit ahead of time. And by the time I'd assured myself I'd found it, I'd played it, usually just a tad too soon. Add a few of those up and it's "speeding up the tempo". That tends to resolve itself as I become more comfortable with a piece and don't do as much guessing.

                                          A second thing I sometimes catch myself doing is "speeding up" parts of a song for rehearsal purposes, usually parts I am very familiar with and really don't need the practice so much as I need to lead in to a section of the song that I do need practice on. I can get accustomed to playing it too fast and then if I'm not careful, I can get on stage and start out playing much too fast, mostly out of habit. It may not be an issue for many who don't have a long song list. There are times when we have extended gigs where there is up to about 5 hours of music, zero repeats. Just to play through every song one time, as it would be performed, no go-backs / repeats, takes a full 5 hours. That's a lot of time. So rushing through or even eliminating parts that just repeat, second / third verses, stuff like that, saves time and allows for some targeting of the more important things... intros, endings, solos, and just remembering the correct A section going with the correct B section, etc. And I do not play with music on stage. It's is ALL in my head. My music stand has a song list... name of song, key, and if there is anything peculiar, a few words to nudge my memory. (Probably TMI.)

                                          I'm sure there are lots of other things that others have, individual quirks. Those are just two of mine. But it was an interesting thought process to try to pick out WHY I was speeding up when I shouldn't.

                                          Of course, sometimes we just get excited and wanna go faster! 😃

                                            ShiroKuro BTW when playing the entire piece w metronome, what do you do when you have a fermata, rit, or other tempo variations? How do you get back in sync the metronome without unnatural pauses?

                                            You can try different strategies, depending on the piece and what aspects you are aiming to practice.

                                            • Straight through with no rubato. This can be an interesting experience, especially with a piece that normally has a lot of rubato. A while ago I tried playing through the whole of Chopin's 4th Ballade like this. It was very strange and certainly not recommended for a performance, but it taught me a lot about how much liberty I was taking at different points, and did in fact inspire me to rethink certain tempo variations.

                                            • As Anmisha suggested, ignore the metronome during a rubato passage and fit in again when you get back to a strict tempo passage.

                                            • Stop the metronome for a ritenuto and start it up again when the piece goes back to tempo. This does chop the piece up somewhat, but is ok if there aren't too many stops.

                                            • For those with the necessary programming skills, create a click track with all the rubato programmed in. I've never actually done this (too much hard work!) but I've often conducted or played to click tracks: this can be a very interesting experience.

                                            In all cases, I don't just ignore my own internal pulse. I'm constantly comparing it with the clicks of the metronome, learning which passages feel faster or slower, even though they stay the same speed. Once I've played the piece a few times with the metronome, I'm much more aware of when I change tempo for musical, expressive reasons and where I change tempo without good reason.

                                              iternabe especially when I purposely start slower for practice.

                                              Yes. I find that if I have a general tempo that I usually play the piece, with a piece that I'm well past the learning stage and into the polishing or performing stage, that becomes my "set tempo," in my body, for that piece. So say I want to slow down for some particular purpose, and play it much slower than I normally do, I find that very challenging because my body wants to play it at its usual tempo. This is a kind of muscle memory, IMO.

                                              When I think more about this problem, I wonder if this is similar to relative pitch vs absolute pitch.

                                              Oh yeah, that's super interesting, I've never thought of it that way!

                                                Player1 I wasn't trying to point a finger at anyone.

                                                Thank you. I can sometimes be a little touchy. I still take a lessons, and I always appreciate the ideas I get from online discussions like this one. Which is to say, I still have a lot to learn and lots of room for improvement. But I've been playing piano for 25 years now, so I bristled at the suggestion that I don't have an internal sense of timing... 😅

                                                Re your comment about clocks, interesting comparison.

                                                I don't disagree with your point that timing, tempo, is an internal skill. It has to be felt in order for the pianist to play in a way that's convincing.

                                                But that doesn't mean we shouldn't use the tools available to use. A metronome is just that, a tool, and as such, it has a place in the toolbox of practice strategies.