My Angeline Bell Piece - Balestrand

Player1 · 2024-09-30T22:04:41+00:00

Here it is, the long awaited Balestrand. This took longer than expected because I stopped practicing for a couple of weeks in the middle of learning it....

candela

I agree with Sophia on this

Sophia However there is no teacher (or guru) who will accept bad timing as an acceptable way to learn a piece... and would insist on the student correcting this no matter their personal style preferences.

You play with a pleasant touch. When I listened to your take on the piece, I was assuming it was written in 4/4 and that you were trying to play something like (sorry I don't seem able to type musical symbols in the forum)
1/4 1/4 1/8 1/8 1/8 1/8 | 1/4 1/4 1/4 1/4 |
Then when listening to people playing it as written and watching the notation on YouTube I realised it was in fact composed in 3/4. I agree that you are totally free to do you, so if that is your intention and how you like it then that is your choice and shouldn't affect anybody else as long as you are only playing on your own and for your personal enjoyment. But personally I would consider changing the meter of a piece to give it a whole new identity that goes way beyond rubato and phrasing. I'm also wondering who those "several gurus" are that would encourage such changes before practicing the music as written.

Player1

candela

I listened to the piece several times (like around 20-25 times in a row) with my metronome going in the background.

I do not believe that it's a tempo or timing issue. Overall the timing and the tempo do vary, if all you do is count mechanically like a clock (tick, tock, tick, tock forever without change). I'm a bit slower overall than 4/4, but I don't believe there's a time signature for the piece. All I can remember off the top of my head is just the notation of "flowing."

I really do believe that what causes the timing variance is the flow issue I'm having. I linger too long on certain notes/passages/measures and don't rest long enough/hold half notes long enough, when I should. This makes it appear that I'm "slowing" when I'm not. Or "rushing" when I'm not. It makes it seem like I can't keep a steady beat, but the beat is, for the most part, fairly steady if you ignore the "lingering too long on some notes/not resting long enough" problem. This is the "spaces between notes" problem that I've been talking about.

I'm not saying that I'm perfect, because I'm not. I do wander in the timing somewhat. However, the issue isn't timing or tempo, it's flow. Where I slow down to "linger" is my head trying to create more drama so I can live longer "in the moment." Afterward, when I return to tempo/time, it sounds like I'm rushing, and I do a bit, but it's not as awful as it appears to be. I go from maybe something like the 7/8 that I'm playing at, to 4/4 at that point before returning to somewhere around 7/8. It's not perfectly steady, but I'm not a clock. Nor do I wish to be.

At least that's what I think it happening based on my metronome and a lot of reviewing and breaking the piece down into bits. I could be wrong, and many will say that I'm trying to either avoid the real issue or denying that I have a problem, but I still believe that it's a flow problem.

What I plan on doing is playing the piece some more with the metronome running (ick!) and work on beginning each measure on the upbeat. I'm hoping that this will improve my flow without resulting in a mechanical sounding piece with no personality.

Unfortunately that means that my lessons will be on hold (yay!) and my long term project (Always on my mind) will be delayed (Boo!) while I sort myself out.

candela

Player1 I don't believe there's a time signature for the piece.

If your edition for some reason missed to specify the time signature at the beginning of the piece you just need to look at any measure (many of which are clearly visible in your video) and count the number of beats. If there are six eighths in each that gives the options of 3/4 or 6/8. The way the notes are grouped — 2+2+2 —is a clear indication that it is intended to be played in 3/4. You can change the tempo of a piece and it will still be recognizable. Changing the meter changes a core characteristic. You are playing the last four eights of the first measure roughly twice as fast as the first two which changes the meter from 3 beats per measure (3/4) to 4 (4/4 or 4/8 depending on how you would choose to notate it.) You may call it flow, but that is not what is generally understood by that word.

In the edition Julian Lambert is sharing on YouTube the meter is explicitly written out at the beginning.

Sophia

Have you trying playing along with the recording WieWaldi posted? Just a few measures at the time.... not the entire piece at once. You will quickly find that you are not keeping correct time (sorry to be a little blunt) 🙂 I know you like to call it "flow", but you just can't play around with these things until you master it correctly. Then you can put your interpretation into it.

Again, let me be blunt. You are not playing it correctly just yet............. but I know for a fact that you have it in you because you are completely consistent in your "incorrectness". Which is solid proof that with a tiny tweak here and there, playing it correctly is within you 🙂

And then it will sound a million times better than it already does, because you're 90% on your way to awesomeness. It would be a crying shame not to go for full marks 😃

Player1

First of all, I admit there's a problem with my playing. Secondly, I know timing and rhythm because I used to play violin before my tremors got so bad I couldn't control the bow and stop the bounce or accidentally crossing strings. I wasn't great at it, but I could stay on tempo with recordings by other performers and play along. I never performed for anyone because the reason I learned how to play is intensely personal and I couldn't (and still can't) share that with anyone. Suffice it to say, I can keep a steady beat and stay in time.

The next issue is that I keep writing a response to the various posts in this thread and deleting it because the words I'm using aren't appropriate. The mention of which should be an indicator to everyone how frustrated I am over the "advice" I'm getting. And that I'm trying to be polite and stay within the rules so no one gets offended or angry, even though that's how I'm feeling right now.

Basically, ragging on me for not agreeing with all of you that my timing is the problem isn't helping.

I will try to be succinct here one more time; the problem is that I'm holding some notes too long in an effort to sustain the dramatic effect of those notes in that particular passage. This is deliberate though subconscious. A secondary issue is that I'm not holding other notes as long as they should be held according to the score. Why I'm doing that, I don't really know. What I do know is that it's not because I'm rushing to get through a measure or that I can't hold a steady beat.

Neither of these things is a timing issue. It's because my "different drummer" refuses to play the piece the way it's written. It's not that I can't, because I can reliably and consistently hit the beat in rhythm drills with my metronome. (I still hate that thing.) It's that, internally, it feels wrong the way it's written. The challenge is to learn to override that feeling so that I can play it the way it's written. Clapping drills, metronome drills, and all the other timing drills will not do squat to solve the problem I'm having because where the problem lies is in my instinctive emotional response rather than as a rational learned response.

To put it another, non musical, way: You say it's aqua, I see blue. I can learn to call it aqua, but I will always see blue. Telling me that what I see isn't blue won't change a thing. Using paint color samples as flashcards might lead to me calling out the various tones of color, but I will always still see blue.

I have an appointment and need to go and this post isn't finished or edited as well as I'd like. My apologies if it offends anyone for my being honest in how I'm feeling right not.

Nightowl

Player1 First of all, I admit there's a problem with my playing. Secondly, I know timing and rhythm because I used to play violin before my tremors got so bad... I never performed for anyone because the reason I learned how to play is intensely personal and I couldn't (and still can't) share that with anyone. Suffice it to say, I can keep a steady beat and stay in time.

I'm going to hazard a guess and say that you learned to play an instrument for one of two reasons:
1) A relative/teacher or close friend encouraged you to play an instrument and you wanted to please/impress them; or
2) A relative/teacher or close friend derided you in your attempts to play an instrument, and possibly said that you were incapable of doing it, and you were/are determined to prove them wrong.

Either way it's very understandable that you don't choose to bare your soul on this forum, but I hope that you gain some pleasure from your musical journey, whatever the reasons for starting it. If that's not the case and it's proving too much of a struggle for you there's no need to struggle on with this difficult and demanding instrument, you have nothing to prove.

Meanwhile, I'm going to bare a bit of my soul here, about how emotions are affecting my own journey. I've finally reached the gorgeous Chopin etude on page 90, of Alfred's book 2 . I've loved this piece for years, and find it heart breakingly sad and beautiful. In fact, sometimes this piece triggers such sad thoughts and strong emotions that I can't face trying to learn it, so I've barely touched it. So you see, you are not alone in carrying some emotional baggage. It's all part of the human condition, no matter how awesome you are. And you are... awesome! You've given me some great advice over the past few months and I appreciate it, thank you.

keystring

Player1 I will try to be succinct here one more time; the problem is that I'm holding some notes too long in an effort to sustain the dramatic effect of those notes in that particular passage. This is deliberate though subconscious. A secondary issue is that I'm not holding other notes as long as they should be held according to the score.....

Just quoting so you get alerted to a response.

I listened, and then hunted up the original since I don't have the notation. I also read all of what you wrote. I think I understand what you're saying because I had a rough counterpart at one time.

You do keep steady tempo and it doesn't necessarily sound like lack of control. I got the impression sometimes that you were "swinging" the notes to the point that I wanted to ask if you have anything like a jazz background. But I think that was a false impression.

Years back, what I had in music was "feeling" but without understanding of what I was doing. When I started piano with my teacher, having self-taught decades earlier, with a couple of years of violin just before, I had a "cliche" going: dramatically pause at the end of a phrase, die down, then climb up in dramatic pathos .... every. single. phrase. sets. It's effective done once. Otherwise it's "There she goes again!" I had no idea I was doing this - it was "feeling".

Another simple piece, "Williams Song", was repetitive but trying to make it interesting fell flat because in my case the rubato had the correct relative timing of notes, but pulse fell flat. I learned "the power of the One" as in the downbeats- first stage of accelerando & rallentando while preserving underlying pulse. I also learned of "agogic accents" - where you extend a note past its value in order to emphasize it, without losing the value of other notes. (You may be feeling "agogic accent" in the raw here.)

Playing is part feeling, and part dry mathematics. Some are naturally inclined toward the one or the other, and we have to counterbalance. I needed to get the dry stuff. I needed to gain understanding so that I could deliberately apply things in a cerebral way, and then "let go" to the feeling part, "just enough". This is probably what you're at the edge of. 🙂

During part of that journey I'd also find myself doing something that seemed almost effective but I didn't know what I was doing. I'd ask my teacher, "What is it that I did over here?" (recording) and he might pinpoint an actual technical thing - then understanding that, I could play with it and use it.

Does this help or lead anywhere?

candela

I'm sorry and apologize for trying to help. I'll be quiet and ignore this thread from now on.
Of course you are free to do you as has been mentioned over and over in this thread.

Player1

candela

Sophia

Please don't. Music to me is intensely personal and it's difficult sometimes to come to grips with the fact that not everyone feels the same way.

A vignette:

As most of you from the other forum know, I used to play violin. My violin was hand made by a luthier and not built in a factory. He's not famous and it's not his best, or most expensive, instrument but it has lovely tone and a full rich sound. It is a better instrument that I would ever have been as a player.

Over a relatively short time period it began to lose its tone and depth. I asked on a luthier's forum what might be causing the problem because I wanted to learn more about what it takes to craft something like a violin that can actually sing when its played.

The responses, uniformly, were to get a teacher, play more, and learn how to produce good tone.

I hesitated once everyone said those things because I had only been playing a couple of years at that point and it could indeed be my playing. Especially since I was already deteriorating physically. I continued to practice diligently and did my best to fix what was wrong. Eventually I reached a point where I had to either quit or give in and send my violin back to its maker fearing that he too would tell me that I was the problem.

Everyone who said I was the problem was wrong. The luthier had to make a new soundpost and fit it in order to bring back what was lost.

The moral of the story: Merely repeating the common wisdom doesn't fit all circumstances.

I have said enough on this because it is getting into an area that I cannot speak much more about. The words that need to be said will not come out.

Sophia

Same goes for me... I was genuinely trying to help, and it is never my intention to cause upset (ever). Play as you see fit... as long as you enjoy it 🙂

Player1

Nightowl

It wasn't either of those things. I needed to learn to play, so I did. No one else was involved in the decision because no one knew anything about it.

Like I said, music is intensely personal for me. Playing my violin was even more private than that.

Sophia

My mistake, for sure. I thought because you dish out advice freely and made us newbies feel so welcome in both forums, that you would be open to receive feedback too. It so happens that I finally had something to offer in this regard, because this is an area I know something about. It has been on my mind for a long time ever since you submitted Butterflies and Musetta's Waltz, but I fully understand how you feel about such feedback now. We'll say no more about it and please continue to enjoy the way you play 🙂

Player1

Sophia

Feedback is welcome. I will always listen to critiques about my piano playing.

The problem, to use my earlier metaphor, is that there is an insistence rising up and saying that I'm "wrong" when I say the color is blue. I am not "wrong," I'm seeing what everyone sees but in a different way and it's not just the choice of words being used.

Time or tempo isn't just playing the notes according to the speed of a clock ticking. The spaces between the notes are important too because, just like in a clock, there's a lot more going on inside than what's visible from the outside.

For yet another example; in the case of a clock, you can grind every other tooth off of a single gear in the power train and then slow that gear's rotation down by 50%. The clock hands will still keep time because the meshing gear's teeth will skip past the stripped parts. It's very hard on the gears and they won't last long because they weren't designed for that kind of impact, but from the outside, everything looks fine because the clock still tells the correct time. Yet it's the spaces between the teeth where the problem lies when it eventually fails, not the escapement which is the part that controls the movement of the hands.

Player1

keystring

It does. It shows that there is a possible solution.

Agogic accents? No, not really because I'm the one adding the accent rather than having it annotated on the score. Maybe what I'm doing might be described as an "unannotated" or "informal" agogic accent, but I don't know if that's even a thing.

Nightowl

Player1 I'm sorry for my intrusive words. You are under no obligation to share the personal reasons behind your piano journey.
I admire you for your perseverance in rising above your health issues to make progress with the piano. It's a tricky enough instrument for those in perfect health, but you have impressive staying power - that is awesome. 🙂

keystring

Player1 It does. It shows that there is a possible solution.

Fantastic

Agogic accents? No, not really because I'm the one adding the accent rather than having it annotated on the score. Maybe what I'm doing might be described as an "unannotated" or "informal" agogic accent, but I don't know if that's even a thing.

It's not really an "accent", just the name of an effect where you emphasize something - you can use time for emphasis, rather than loudness. Think if an orator. "This man is perfect." "This man .... is perfect." "This ..... man is perfect." by putting a space in different places, there is an effect.

The good musicians, the pros and such, will make their music say something through various devices, often quite subtle. One of those devices is where you choose to do a little pause like in "This... man is perfect." - it's part of the interpretation, and it is not written into the music. You wrote that your feeling led you, and that feeling had you end up with some speed changes as this or that note got stressed and others got rushed. So a kind of instinctive sense of this, but uncontrolled at this point. That is similar to the "agogic accent".

rogerch

I listened again, and I think your playing is lovely, @Player1. I have never heard anyone else play this piece and now I don't want to!

As an amateur piano player, if you're enjoying your playing you're doing it right.

Playing a piece as written can be challenging, fun and rewarding. If that's your goal it's helpful to get feedback from others.

Taking huge liberties with a piece is fine too. Play it however you want! If your playing is only loosely based on the original composition and you're having fun playing it, you're doing great! Making it sound the way YOU want it to sound is also challenging, fun, and rewarding!

Keep at it @Player1, I want to hear more!

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