Novus NV10S vs Acoustic

Damien

Hello. I was not sure whether to start this discussion under the Acoustic or Digital Forums, so I picked Acoustic. I was going to send PMs to Gombessa and Navindra, but I decided to post this message on the Piano Tell Forum so that others might benefit.
I noticed that Gombessa and Navindra both recently moved from the Novus NV10s to (high end) acoustics. I have a Yamaha GC2, and I am thinking about getting a Novus NV10s. I am not able to control the room humidity in the summer, and I live smack dab in the middle of nowhere, so it is not convenient to get technician help. I am hopefully going to Toronto in the near future to try the NV10s. My questions are, did the Novus NV10s not seem like an acceptable alternative to an acoustic, and does the NV10s mechanisms suffer when exposed to humidity swings as an acoustic grand does? Thanks.

keff

Damien My questions are, did the Novus NV10s not seem like an acceptable alternative to an acoustic, and does the NV10s mechanisms suffer when exposed to humidity swings as an acoustic grand does? Thanks.

I have played a NV10S at a dealership specifically to test if it was close to an acoustic piano. As you would expect I found the action no different to a Kawai GL grand series but wasn't totally convinced by the sound. The sound was nice but it didn't seem to envelop me as it would if it was produced by a soundboard. This might have been due to the position of the piano in the dealership.

I would expect the NV10S action to react to humidity in a similar manner as a grand action although I would be disappointed if keys started sticking. However I know of a Kawai upright that did suffer from the odd sticking key when it was new. Easy to fix when it's acoustic but not sure if a NV10S can be opened up as easily.

Since and imo the NV10s is the best you can get it should be an acceptable alternative to an acoustic piano and indeed it is one that I might consider myself.

navindra

Damien Just so that I understand correctly, are you needing technician help for action regulation or just for tuning on the GC2?

It's my understanding that a fair number of folks are successfully making the switch from acoustic to digital. The trends and stats are staggering according this video:

I never had to get anything done with the Novus action (aside from replacing the pedal spring) but I expect it to be just as susceptible as any other Kawai Millennium III carbon fiber action... that's still better than the wooden action on the GC2. The NV10S action was also redesigned to address a flaw in the NV10 iteration where the hammer weights were apparently becoming unglued.

Of the folks here, @tomlacroix actually had his NV10 action regulated multiple times and it wasn't particularly easy either. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if @Gombessa touched up his action as well. 😃

I noticed you have a ES920, what's your take on that?

From my perspective, once I bought an acoustic piano, the NV10 didn't get a whole lot of use. Even though there was no comparison between the upright action and the NV10 action, the sound experience on the acoustic completely won me over.

The Novus is very competent, and if you know what you're getting, I think you'll be very happy.

So what's the actual problem you're having with the GC2? If it's only tuning, perhaps this is solvable via DIY?

Gombessa

Damien

Hi Damien,
Without speaking for Navindra, I switched from the Novus not because I found a fault with it, but mainly because I really, really, really wanted an acoustic. It was my end game, and I realized I could get it now, before I start getting too old to really enjoy it.

The acoustic does take more maintenance/monitoring though. I absolutely go overboard on this point, but that's something I personally enjoy, frankly.

The NV10 is great. I honestly don't think you need to worry much about humidity or regulation. The Millennium 3 action has a lot of quality composite parts in the action, that are more or less impervious to humidity. If you live in the wide extremes, you might indeed experience some sluggish or sticking keys, because the keybed, keysticks and some parts of the action are still real wood, but I really don't recall anyone reporting that.

So to whether it's a good alternative to an acoustic, it really depends on what you need. For me, a digital is not even the same game, let alone the same league, as an acoustic. But if I had to get rid of my acoustic today, I'd probably get another NV10/NV10S. I was never fully happy with the speakers/sound, but I mainly play using headphones (even now with the acoustic) and when I had the NV10 I used a VST. Really, a hybrid is as close as you can get, and that's a fine niche for it to live in.

Damien

Hello. I just did a search on Piano Tell, which I probably should have done before I posted, and I found a conversation started by “petrified” on May 27, which supplies much of the information that I was looking for, but I would still welcome further comments. Thanks.

Animisha

For us who follow this discussion

Damien and I found a conversation started by “petrified” on May 27

the correct name is petrofied, and the title of the thread is: "Can even the top end hybrids really satisfy a grand player?"

Animisha

navindra

I started to listen to this video, but then I heard him say this: "...10 reasons why I think digital pianos are going to continue tipping the balance away from Acoustics at least in terms of beginner entry level and maybe even mid-range instruments..."

At the beginning entry level and mid-range instruments, this is all quite obvious for me. However, the question here is about the comparison between high end instruments. Novus NV10s versus (high end) acoustics, as Damien says.

tomlacroix

navindra I have to clarify Navindra's correct comments. There was no need to regulate my NV10. I thought I would like a lighter action. Since I had become acquainted with the Kawai So. California lead technician, who happens to live nearby, I asked him if he could make it lighter. He told me how they do that on acoustic Kawai's. Although he hadn't done it on a NV10, he didn't see why he couldn't. However, It took much longer than expected. I think the sensors are more difficult than strings to adjust. The action itself was no problem. It was a five hour process. About a year later I called and asked him to put it back. The lighter action was too difficult for me to control. He was able to get it back to factory specs. In my opinion simply sprucing up the action without changing the geometry (as he called it) to make it lighter would take about one hour and not be difficult.

WieWaldi

iternabe

navindra

Gombessa Very well put!

My reasons for going acoustic and my thoughts on the NV10 align almost point to point with yours.

The action on the Novus is one of the finest actions I've ever played... but the sound experience on speakers doesn't approach that of an acoustic, not even an upright.

iternabe

DariaPiano on YouTube also has some lengthy and interesting explanation on the difference between digital and acoustic pianos.

A few things she said that aren't being mentioned elsewhere:

Action: Acoustic piano keys are harder to push, but easier to hold. Digital pianos are the opposite.
Dynamics: Acoustic is unlimited in the upper (louder) dynamics - the harder you strike the bigger the sound. Digital piano dynamics has a hard limit that's easily reachable.
Timber: Acoustics timber is not only rich but completely controllable by the player (you). Digital piano uses recorded sample so at any certain dynamics, the timber of the sound is baked in.

Of those, the part about action most likely don't apply to NV10s, I think.

WieWaldi

iternabe I read your comment and already on the first point:

Action: Acoustic piano keys are harder to push, but easier to hold. Digital pianos are the opposite

I was scratching my head. Why should this be true? If a digital has a hammer mechnic, it simulates the behaviour of an acoustic. And it depends to the construction of the levers how it feels. The good old Yamaha P515 is known to be heavy when pressed down initially, but requires little force to continue the key movement. Actually the opposite, she describes.

I started with the first video of her and after 2 minutes I figured out she has no clue what she is talking about. She really thinks weighted key means touch sensitive. (here) Sorry, but that is plain wrong. If we talk about touch sensitive keys, we use the term "touch sensitive". period. And weighted means there a mass to be accelerated instead of using a spring for resistance.
At least she knows what the graded means. But it is ignorant to think all manufacturers do the same as Yamaha. My Kawai costs a fraction of her Yamaha CLP745, but the grading is smooth and not in blocks. And she thinks, if her digital behaves like that, all other digitals behave the same?!? I have the impression, she knows very little about a topic she talks hours over hours.

iternabe

WieWaldi My Kawai costs a fraction of her Yamaha CLP745, but the grading is smooth and not in blocks.

After watching her video, I got curious and looked up if DP actions are actually graded in zones. There have been several discussion threads on PW on the topic: here, and here. Looks like Roland PHA-4, PHA-50, Kawai GrandFeel, and possibly GF2 and GF3 are all graded in zones. Some marketing material say "individually weighted keys" which can be misleading. Only when specified as "linearly graded" the keys' weight are individually incremental.

I thought about why acoustic actions make the key harder to press but easier to hold. She was talking about grand piano action. The keys are long, and the entire action mechanism has lots of moving parts. That's a lot of inertia to get moving. However, the key stick is also balanced on the center pivot point, therefore when it's not moving only very little force is needed to keep it in position. In addition, grand action has the real double escapement mechanism which means the hammer weight "escapes" from the key and that lessens the hold pressure, too. DP action, on the other hand, has a lot less parts, therefore smaller inertia. DP action's pivot point is also at the end of the key stick (except for VPC-1's RM3 and NV10s), making the bottom of the key travel needing the highest pressure to hold in place.

I watched all 4 episodes of Daria's talk on Acoustic vs DP. Although she does not come off as being knowledgeable of the DP technical details, she does draw all her points from experience playing both types of instruments extensively. At least that's my impression.

Gombessa

iternabe Looks like Roland PHA-4, PHA-50, Kawai GrandFeel, and possibly GF2 and GF3 are all graded in zones. Some marketing material say "individually weighted keys" which can be misleading. Only when specified as "linearly graded" the keys' weight are individually incremental.

Yep, IIRC this is true. Most DPs in fact only have ₄ graded zones.

The higher end Yamaha CLPs (only the x75 and x85/95 I think) and Casio GP-310/510 have linear grading, and the hybrids (AvantGrand, Novus) all do.

It's probably a more subtle touch than anything indispensable, in the grand scheme of things. I'd rather have a really solid, quality hammer action with ungraded keys, rather than a poor action with linear grading.

WieWaldi

iternabe After watching her video, I got curious and looked up if DP actions are actually graded in zones...

Here are my measure results: (A6 was an exception, I triple and quad checked it)

If there were zones, I would say from F3-B6 and from C6-C8. For the rest, it is harder to tell.

On the other hand, I am not sure if an acoustic has zones, too. In the bass, the strings get longer and thicker and therefore heavier. But the key does not lift the string. It lifts the hammer and the damper. As the heavier strings need more force, the hammer gets heavier and maybe the damper, too.
But also with acoustics, why should a manufacturer produce for every key a different weighted hammer-model. Wouldn't be the same hammer type good for a range of keys?

iternabe grand action has the real double escapement mechanism which means the hammer weight "escapes" from the key and that lessens the hold pressure

To be fair, this is a VERY valid point.
But the other explanation with moving parts and the balance of a center pivot point doesn't make that much sense. The levers of a folded action mimics this, and the same inertia is needed to move all the weights and parts. Next time in a shop, I should deliberatly compare the feel of a Kawai GF-III and the Roland Hybrid-Grand. Both have similar keystick length from keyend to the pivot point, but one is a sea-saw construction, the other one is folded.
Last time I only compared the shorter versions (Kawai GFC and Roland PHA-50) and the difference was more of the kind: "company A vs company B". The difference between two folded actions (of same price range) is the same.

Gombessa

WieWaldi On the other hand, I am not sure if an acoustic has zones, too. In the bass, the strings get longer and thicker and therefore heavier. But the key does not lift the string. It lifts the hammer and the damper.

Acoustics are not zoned, they're all "linearly graded" (to use the digital terminology). Each key has a unique, graded weight due to the size of the hammers and dampers (and also on larger grands, the length of the keysticks). On an acoustic, Every single hammer is an individual size/weight, the same with every single damper:

mivaldes

I've owned a Yamaha N1X and while the high end hybrid pianos are great, there is NOTHING that can match the soundboard of a good acoustic grand piano. At the end of the day it's high end speakers vs the real deal.

iternabe

What about hybrid digital pianos that use soundboard and transducers, like Kawai NV-5 or Yamaha Transacoustic? Do they actually sound better than just speakers?

Gombessa

iternabe

If I'm being honest, no. The digital soundboards still don't sound or feel like an acoustic, though some may feel they are a little better than traditional speakers (and I've heard DPs with traditional speakers that sound better than soundboards).

So on a scale of 100, if an acoustic piano is 100, the Novus and other high end digitals are probably 10-15. And a transducer-activated soundboard DP is maybe 11-16.

Even the Transacoustic/Aures, which are full acoustic pianos with full-sized and prepared soundboards, don't get as loud or resonant as when played acoustically. They're maybe 15-20 out of 100, experience-wise.

Just my $0.02.

CHAS

iternabe
The NV5S I had sounded better than the NV10s to me. I liked it better than speakers.