Sharps or flats?

ShiroKuro · 2024-09-20T11:13:17+00:00

I have always preferred, in terms of finding it easier to read, sharps than flats. I don’t know why. At two or three sharps or flats, I don’t really notice t...

rogerch

Sophia I love Music Box Dancer! I recently spent some time trying to learn it by ear. I learned it in Db. Same notes, easier (for me) to manage. 🙂

twocats

rogerch I love Music Box Dancer!

I just looked it up and thought I had never heard it before, but then realized I used to have a music box (a beautiful porcelain ballerina) that played this tune!

Regarding sharps and flats, I find it funny that people have preferences! I am equally likely with both to start reading a piece and realize a few bars in that I didn't look at the key signature properly 🤣

twocats

twocats Regarding sharps and flats, I find it funny that people have preferences!

Ok, now this is funny. I thought I didn't have a preference but I am working on a piece that changes key signatures a lot and I think I actually prefer flats!!

Rob

Sophia Thank you for reminding me of this. i haven't heard it in years.

And sorry, but I couldn't resist........
I wrote a piece back in 2006 after coming across my late mother's musical box.
It inspired thoughts of a ballerina trapped forever, only to come alive at midnight to dance freely once more, before returning to the box before daylight.
(link below)

Midnight Ballerina

Sophia

Rob That's an adorable piece! Love the accompaniment too, did you add that yourself? I could actually visibly see the ballerina in my mind, you painted that vivid a picture 😃

ShiroKuro

@Rob Love it!

navindra

ShiroKuro Sharps forever!

The first scale I learnt was the C# scale. That's an awesome scale for learners to start with, in my opinion.

I think it's easier than the C scale that most beginners are introduced to, as the fingers fall on the keys quite naturally and the relationship between the notes is more intuitive, visually. Whole, Whole. Half. Whole, Whole, Whole. Half. Maps perfectly to the 2-3 black key groups.

It would be quite silly to call it a Db scale in my opinion. That's like going Re Mi Fa instead of Do Re Mi. #️⃣

On the flip side, if I had started with the B scale, then perhaps b would have won out. 🐝

twocats

navindra It would be quite silly to call it a Db scale in my opinion.

I'm going to object to this. C# major has 7 sharps, so by definition it is a nightmare 😂 D-flat major is 5 flats, which is a very lovely number of flats.

BartK

navindra It would be quite silly to call it a Db scale in my opinion.

Funny you say that because I always thought of that scale as D-flat. It's weird because in my head the major scale is D-flat major but the minor one is C-sharp minor. I guess I formed this concept because C-sharp major pieces are very rare. It's the same with A-flat major and G-sharp minor.

navindra

twocats When everything is a sharp, the sharps don't matter.

Assume you have the C# scale under your fingers — it's just another Do Re Mi. So, if your key signature is C#, then you're just reading the C major scale and you already have it all under your fingers. So it's very easy, right? It's literally as easy as having no sharps at all.

Why are 5 flats a very lovely number? To me that requires way more mental calculations. You literally have to track which note is a flat and which note isn't.

twocats

navindra maybe when playing a scale, but if you're reading music the sharps or flats that end up on a white key are very annoying (dealing with a key signature of 6 flats right now and I keep missing C-flat, which lands on the B) 😂

5 sharps or flats is a lovely key signature because if there's a black key above/below your letter note, you use it. You don't have to remember which of them is not a sharp or a flat 🙂

navindra

twocats Interesting! I think this is really all a flaw or artifact of the notation system.

I guess I don't find C# difficult, because I just think in relative terms. I already know where those notes are. If there's a b or # on top of the key signature, I already know what to do... it's just a half step up or down from the note that I already know. It doesn't really matter if it's a black key or not.

I'll have to remember that trick though because Db is way more common than C#, unfortunately. Or maybe I'll just use MusicXML let it transform the signature. 😃

navindra

BartK Indeed. It's a weird inversion to me as well.

In the end, all major scales should essentially be the same in terms of WWHWWWH, and if you could choose between a scale starting with D or B, why wouldn't you just start with C?

Because everybody knows C. The music notation system is completely biased towards it. So you can take advantage of the fact that 7 flats or 7 sharps can be read as C and map it to the scale you've already learned. # or b on that is just relative.

I especially like playing around with C# major because things get interesting for me with alternate temperament tunings.

twocats

navindra I think you're basically doing a mental trick to learn the scale but once you start playing pieces with many sharps and flats in the key signature and have to read them, I'm wondering if you'll change your mind 🙂

navindra

twocats Yes, the truly generalized mental trick I use is this.

I learn the major scale like this:

1 2 34 5 6 71

The numbers that are together represent the half steps.

Now I can play and learn new scales like this:

2 34 5 6 71 2

34 5 6 71 2 3

The location of the half step is the same, so now I've left major scale territory behind, and I'm essentially learning new scales just in terms of relation of numbers.

This is the minor scale:

6 71 2 34 5 6

I picked it up from some improvisation course and I've been thinking about scales in relative terms like this ever since. I like to think it frees me from artificial limitations of the notation system.

Animisha

I find it easier to play sharps compared to flats, but my ear prefers pieces with flats.

twocats

navindra I find your method very confusing, but given that the key signatures are (generally) so internalized for me, I thank young me for having suffered through all that so that I don't have to think too much now 😂

I can only read music, though. I have no improvisation abilities.

navindra

twocats I do think I'd be really happy if my brain worked that way and I could magically sightread without thinking about it! I don't know if I've missed the boat on that entirely or if I just really need some intense training.

Assigning numbers to notes on the scale is no different than numbering the chords like I IV and V7. For me, it just makes it explicit that there's no fundamental difference[*] between key signatures, everything is just transposed. Everything is still Do Re Mi and all the note relationships are exactly the same.

[*] Of course, in practice there can be a subtle differences because of unequal tuning as well as different resonances from the available open strings.

JB_PT

I don't suppose anyone knows of a site where we can search or sort pieces by key? I'd like to torture myself by reading music with 6-7 flats & sharps (or minor keys with lots of doubles) and I haven't really come across many. I am working through the WTC slowly, but those are hard enough even without tough keys that it's not very efficient.

Pallas

JB_PT This is an interesting question, and I want to know the answer too, although it will be a long time until I benefit from it musically. I started with good old Wikipedia, which lists large works that include pieces in every key. WTC is on the list, of course, but I learned a lot of interesting things just by looking at the list. I hope not all of these works are as difficult as Liszt's Transcendental Etudes (which I've listened to many times, but never knew were all in flat key signatures!)

I'm going to keep digging, but here's the Wiki page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_written_in_all_major_or_minor_keys

Just a few clicks and I've already found some dark reddit rabbit holes, and I've already gotten one virus warning. Walking on the wild side! I've found really cool stuff on other searches, so you never know what some shy Internet wizard will have hidden on a Dropbox somewhere. 😜

Pallas

JB_PT I just figured out that if you put the key into the search in IMSLP, it will cough up a list of works in that key:

https://imslp.org/wiki/Category:F-sharp_major

And you can click through to view the score to see if it's in your skill range.

JB_PT

Pallas Interesting - thanks! I'm familiar with some of the music on that list and I already know it's going to be too hard...but some I don't know about yet so I'll review those later in the week.

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