piano placement in small apartment

TheBoringPianist

So I just finished payments on my N2 hybrid and of course I'm already starting to think about buying an acoustic piano. Practicing on a real action with the N2 has already been great for my touch, but because it's digital sound production my sound hasn't improved as quickly and is one of the main development areas my teacher identified. My teacher has been kind enough to let me practice on his old Steinway when he's out of town and that definitely helped, but I can't assume he'll continue have a steady stream of traveling engagements conveniently timed for my practice.

One major barrier: I live in a small high rise apartment. I'm fairly lucky that I don't really have any bordering neighbors so above/below are the main sources of noise complaints, but I'm pretty limited as far as where I can put the piano. Here's my current layout:

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I've highlighted what would typically be considered as "piano hazards" (light, water, heat), which pretty much only leaves one place to put the piano: the same place my N2 currently lives.

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Ideally I'd be able to host small (4-6 people) piano meetups at my apartment as well, otherwise I could consider putting the piano in the bedroom (which is slightly larger than the living room and would be away from the kitchen, but adjacent to a neighboring apartment).

Questions:

Is light exposure on the lid/exterior body a big deal vs. being close to the kitchen?
Is there a better place to put the piano?
Is this just a terrible idea in the first place?

Seeker

TheBoringPianist Is this just a terrible idea in the first place?

No, it's not a terrible idea, but in my experience, it won't work. It is VERY DIFFICULT to isolate the sound of a piano from your neighbors. I lived in a building where sound traveled, and despite putting sound absorbing materials in the windows, a blanket at the foot of the door, PEOPLE COMPLAINED, and I was only practicing when MOST people were out of the building. Yes, there are things you can put under the casters to isolate the piano from the floor, but the rest of the instrument is made to resonate and project, and it will. It's different if you live in a building like the one I lived in on W.101st Street many years ago in NYC. The walls were thick as were the floors. It was possible to play in that apartment and not disturb the neighbors - the only sound that escaped was a little through the front door! But, most apartments these days aren't built like that.

Me, until I could move to a more piano friendly place, I'd stick with the N2 and see about getting access to a grand - either at your teacher's, or alternatively through a church or similar place somewhat nearby. I wish I could be more sanguine about your chances of success putting a grand piano into a small bedroom in an acoustically live building.

I would also agree with ShiroKuro that a good upright, particularly one with a middle pedal that invoked "quiet mode" might be a better solution. I have several professional pianist friends in England, Germany, etc., who routinely use those instruments because of their living situations and adjust their playing to whatever instrument is available when playing professionally in recitals.

Gombessa

I think with limited options, what you have planned is probably as good as any. I think dropping a part of the sectional and having the bench there will maintain player/audience connection, and there's really not many more options to balance livability and a large grand.

You already know this, but having the piano directly across from the range is going to do a number on your finish. My piano is ₂₅ away from an open kitchen range, and even across that distance I regularly get airborne grease settle onto the surface (it's easy to see because of the gloss).

Ithaca

If your range hood is a standard re-circulating apartment type, I'd suggest covering your piano whenever you're cooking + running a PM2.5 meter so you know when the air is clear enough. An acquaintance recently saw 300+ ug/m³ shortly after beginning to stir-fry in their kitchen w/their re-circulating hood at max fan speed....

FWIW, my piano is ₁₂' away from my stove, but my relatively powerful range hood vents directly outside via a short & straight exhaust. Even so, if something is slightly burning in the oven, I have to also run a HEPA air filter at max speed to keep the PM2.5 level from rising above ₈ ug/m³. (Baseline for us is 1-2 ug/m³.) Knock wood, even with frying eggs and lots of boiling water, there's only the slightest hint of residue on the piano after 5 months. (It's never covered, although I try to lower the big lid if we're cooking.) I haven't had the nerve to deep-fry yet, though, and I may never screw up the courage. 🙂

TheBoringPianist

Thanks for all the helpful comments and suggestions!

Ithaca I'd suggest covering your piano whenever you're cooking + running a PM2.5 meter so you know when the air is clear enough

I definitely plan on keeping the lid closed and cover on whenever cooking. Re: PM2.5 meter, I do have a cheap combo air quality meter (Temp/Humidity/CO2/PM2.5) in my bedroom, your suggestion prompted me to move it over to my N2 just now to collect data on how cooking affects that area before I make a decision. Great idea!

ShiroKuro and you don’t want to consider an upright? I only mention it because it would be easier to cover/keep covered when not in use .... I hate to say this, but would you/could you considering moving?

Haha yeah I'd like a grand piano action. I do plan on keeping the lid closed and covered when not in use. Moving is such a PITA that I probably won't do it until I can afford a townhouse/SFH (which, at early stage startup salary levels, might be never 😅)

Seeker It is VERY DIFFICULT to isolate the sound of a piano from your neighbors.

Yeah definitely, I'm under no delusion that I'll be able to achieve full acoustic isolation. FWIW I have pretty decent separation from neighbors for an apartment (pretty much only my bedroom shares a wall) so reducing vibrations to the floor below is my main concern (since I can hear when the people above me wear hard-soled shoes). I haven't gotten any noise complaints yet (knock on wood) about playing the N2 without headphones on a bare floor so I may just have exceptionally tolerant neighbors. I'd definitely make the rounds to set expectations and align on norms though.

Ithaca Re: sun exposure. Are your windows floor-to-ceiling, or partial-height? .... If I had your set-up, I'd be tempted to run the bass side along the windows (with blinds and solar screens)

They start about 19" off the ground but honestly the bottom section of the windows feel wasted so I could just block them off. I've heard similar from my dealer about it being a reasonable compromise for the lid to block the sun as long as the body isn't getting direct sunlight.

Pallas My first instinct when I saw the OP floorplan was to move sleeping arrangements into the kitchen-side of the apartment and turn the bedroom side into the music room/living room.

Haha I have considered this. I think this is possibly best for the piano, but less ideal for the human who also happens to share the apartment (more refrigerator/HVAC noises kitchen-side).

Going to remove my floor plans now for opsec purposes but thanks for all the suggestions/comments, I have a lot of thinking to do before I decide whether or not to go for it!

ShiroKuro

@TheBoringPianist and you don’t want to consider an upright? I only mention it because it would be easier to cover/keep covered when not in used.

I hate to say this, but would you/could you considering moving? I wouldn’t suggest that to many people. But knowing how serious you are about playing, and your comment about wanting to be able to have piano meetups, you might be happier in the long run if you could get into an apt or town house etc with a different, i.e. more piano-friendly, layout.

When we bought our first house, a spot for my upright with potential for a future grand was at the top of my priority list. Then when we bought our current house, I already had the grand, so it was a non-negotiable.

Oh one more comment. Boston makes a 163cm grand piano with the wide tail design, I have played a few (both new and used) in that size and they are very, very nice instruments!

Sorry, i suspect my entire post is not helpful to you!! 😅

Ithaca

Re: sun exposure. Are your windows floor-to-ceiling, or partial-height?

FWIW, the nose of my piano is about 14 inches from a bank of primarily south-facing windows. (There's a 15-degree rotation to the west, which makes it even worse.) When discussing piano placement, my dealer considered rotating the piano 90 degrees so that the entire bass side would run along the windows. I was startled, but he said that it would be fine as long as I kept the lid propped at least a few inches. His explanation was that since the windowsill came almost to the top of the piano, he wasn't concerned about the sun baking the body itself (which would be immediately noticeable from the tuning), and that an open lid would serve two purposes - to actually act as a sun shield for the body/interior, and to allow any heat to escape. He also said the modern PE finishes are completely fine in the sun, so there's no concern about crazing.

Of course, he also suggested that I install a motorized solar screen on an automatic sensor, to put my mind at ease. 🙂

If I had your set-up, I'd be tempted to run the bass side along the windows (with blinds and solar screens), both to give the piano a little more room from the kitchen, and also to allow the sound waves to propagate along the long axis of the room. I think having the lid open to a wall 5 or 6 feet away might cause acoustic effects you don't want.

Pallas

Ithaca I recently watched a documentary about Seymour Bernstein, who has lived in a small, one-room New York apartment for 50 years. He sleeps on a pullout sofa, and his piano is on the window end of the apartment. He uses heavy drapes, I believe, to protect the piano from the sun. My first instinct when I saw the OP floorplan was to move sleeping arrangements into the kitchen-side of the apartment and turn the bedroom side into the music room/living room. Unusual, but would save the piano from all adverse elements except noise complaints.

I think it's important to note that not all complaints will have a negative consequence and meeting the neighbors and talking about which hours might be friendliest has a good chance of creating a sustainable situation. It's reasonable to complain when you're trying to sleep, but people can be surprisingly reasonable if you just talk to them and negotiate.

Ithaca

Pallas I recently watched a documentary about Seymour Bernstein, who has lived in a small, one-room New York apartment for 50 years. He sleeps on a pullout sofa, and his piano is on the window end of the apartment. He uses heavy drapes, I believe, to protect the piano from the sun. My first instinct when I saw the OP floorplan was to move sleeping arrangements into the kitchen-side of the apartment and turn the bedroom side into the music room/living room. Unusual, but would save the piano from all adverse elements except noise complaints.

Yes, I was also thinking along these lines - have the living area function more like a NYC studio apartment, and make the bedroom into a combined living/music room. Depending on the width of the hallway from the entryway to the bedroom, the flow could be quite good. However, if the balcony is substantial (and there's no access from the bedroom), then the bedroom-into-living-room plan becomes less attractive.

Pallas I think it's important to note that not all complaints will have a negative consequence and meeting the neighbors and talking about which hours might be friendliest has a good chance of creating a sustainable situation. It's reasonable to complain when you're trying to sleep, but people can be surprisingly reasonable if you just talk to them and negotiate.

This is what I was thinking - certainly some of it has to do with how well the building is constructed, as Seeker mentions, but a lot of it has to do with what the neighbors are like. I had friends who bought a Brooklyn duplex in one of those old well-built townhouses that had been subdivided - they had the garden and parlor floors. At one point they bought an older Yamaha U3 and placed it on an internal wall. One set of neighbors 2 floors up complained about the noise, so my friends moved the piano to a wall that backed onto the shared stairwell (it had more mass), added acoustic treatments to the wall, and stuffed a down blanket into the piano. (I was surprised it was still playable, but it was - just rather muffled.) Neighbors okay for a while, but then they decided that the thumping of the keys being played was too irritating. After much discussion, they eventually agreed on a 2-hour window each day when the piano could be played. A few months after that, the neighbors started complaining about the sound of the laundry being done at night (the washer and dryer was 3 floors below where they lived).

My friends decided to move. Their new neighbors (and their tenant whose apartment is directly below the piano) say they like hearing the piano. 😃

Sgisela

@TheBoringPianist if there are questions about whether this will work or not, could you talk to the dealer about loaning you a piano for a month or so? Obviously this wouldn’t be cheap, but you might be able to get a better sense of the feasibility, before you spring the big bucks and make a big commitment.

Ithaca

Sgisela could you talk to the dealer about loaning you a piano for a month or so?

This, exactly. B/c I was buying a used piano, my dealer offered me a 2-week trial period to make sure it wasn’t too loud for my house. But for new ones, he supposedly treats them like rentals and charges something like 1.5% of the purchase price per month + moving costs. If you have to send a piano back after a month, it’s expensive, but far better than having an expensive piano that you can’t play and can’t send back.

TheBoringPianist

Sgisela ooh good idea, will ask the dealer! On their website, for the uprights they rent out they allow up to 6 months of rent to be applied towards the purchase price so if they're willing to do something similar I'd definitely try it out to see if I can make it work!

TheBoringPianist

I ended up buying a used Estonia L168! When I first played it at the dealership, it had lost some of its warmth compared to the new one they had on the floor in exchange for more brightness/clarity, but they had a tech do some work on it at my request and it's much nicer now (and I was able to finance it at a better rate than originally anticipated) so I went ahead and pulled the trigger. I think I'll keep the N2 for now as a backup — I won't be able to get the same value as trading it in and now I have to figure out how to fit both in the apartment, but I think the optionality is probably worth it.

Gombessa

TheBoringPianist

TheBoringPianist I ended up buying a used Estonia L168!

Amazing! That's what navindra has, right?

rogerch

TheBoringPianist Congrats on the piano acquisition! May it bring you many years of great joy!

Ithaca

Oh, delightful! If you get around to recording on it, I'd love to hear it.

TheBoringPianist When I first played it at the dealership, it had lost some of its warmth compared to the new one they had on the floor in exchange for more brightness/clarity

Do you think the difference is that your piano has been played in? I.e., in a couple of years, would the new one sound similar to yours? I bought my piano used, and there was a certain comfort in knowing that what I was hearing was pretty much how it would stay in the near-term.

Sgisela

TheBoringPianist that’s fantastic! Congratulations 🎉🎊🎈!
I’m the very happy owner of an L210–nothing tinny about it, IMO! That said, I’m sure I play less than you and that my repertoire is less demanding. I’ve had the piano since April 2021 and had it voiced down about a year and a half ago when I felt it was getting a bit too bright. But honestly, I do some piano get-togethers with people who have very good pianos, and I always leave the get-togethers feeling that I have the better piano, and it’s not close! I’m sure some of that has to do with my personal preferences and with my familiarity with my instrument, but I really love the piano, and I’m so glad I chose it.

I think the plan to keep the hybrid is good, as given your living situation, you may find yourself still needing to do a lot of silent practice.

Anyways, I’m looking forward to hearing about the delivery!

TheBoringPianist

Gombessa That's what navindra has, right?

I believe so! I think I first tried one back around the 2003–2004 era when I was starting to get more serious about piano leading up to college and even then early in the Laul era I remember really enjoying the sound. We ended up sticking with the Yamaha upright I had used since childhood, but in some ways this has been a longtime piano dream! (of course, since then I've also collected Bösendorfer dreams that I don't know if I'll ever fulfill)

Ithaca Do you think the difference is that your piano has been played in? I.e., in a couple of years, would the new one sound similar to yours?

Yes, the brightness/clarity is something that I think tends to happen as a piano's hammers break in, so to speak. That in and of itself isn't an issue (the new one actually felt a little too soft in some ways so some breaking in would help it), but a pianist I know mentioned that in their experience Estonias don't tend to stay warm but grow tinny quickly. The fact that the used one could be adjusted to regain some of the warmth I was missing from the new one gave me more confidence that with appropriate care I can continue to enjoy this "warm hug" tone.

Ithaca If you get around to recording on it, I'd love to hear it.

Now that you mention recording, I'm wondering how I'll get rid of the background refrigerator noises that will definitely be present if the piano goes where I'm currently planning. Maybe bedroom piano is the way to go haha...

rogerch

TheBoringPianist I'm wondering how I'll get rid of the background refrigerator noises

When I record I turn off the air conditioning. You could turn off the fridge while recording. Unless you're recording for a really long time your food will probably be OK. It might not be so good for the fridge though...

Pallas

TheBoringPianist I'm "team bedroom piano" (congratulations!) but I believe Audacity and other applications can be used to remove background noise from a recording.