For Finale users

keystring

I don't know if this is the right section. I got a notice from Finale that they were discontinuing the software and an invitation to get "Dorico" at a discount for Finale users. Is anyone familiar with that software with feedback or comments?

This is the link they gave to the notice.

https://www.finalemusic.com/blog/end-of-finale-new-journey-dorico-letter-from-president/?utm_source=Iterable&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=campaign_10832062

I never got that far with Finale, and if Dorico is similar (not too great a transition) or maybe even easier to use, I might look into it. The 2nd complication is that I study with someone who uses Finale - if using a different product in the future there may be a compatibility issue (can D read F?)

AaronSF

Whomever you are studying with will also have to quit using Finale and migrate to another platform...or keep using Finale with no updates and no support. Why not ask them what they plan to do.

keystring

AaronSF Whomever you are studying with will also have to quit using Finale and migrate to another platform...or keep using Finale with no updates and no support. Why not ask them what they plan to do.

I'm informing myself first. In only got the notification today. I've not gotten that deep into Finale and find it a steep learning curve. If "Dorico" is easier to use, I've also become curious about that software. I guess I should ask about compatibility. (I never heard of Dorico before).

keystring

I may be the only one here affected (going by responses). I'll give my conclusions in case there is anyone else. 🙂

I now know that you can save Finale music as XML (looks like code) and if I drag XML into Finale it looks like music again. In the same way, music written in Dorico can go into Finale as XML and vice versa. Therefore even if the other person stays with the old Finale, the two are compatible.

I watched several people use Dorico on YT, and it seemed more straightforward with some things easier to find. I've never gone that far with Finale and have yelled at it a lot. Recently I had to give up because suddenly I couldn't find rests. Or with the setup "Wizard" I click on "keyboard" and then it won't let me go on because I didn't also "select" what I had clicked on. I watched the equivalent in Dorico and it seemed much more straightforward. I have been telling myself that I have to invest time in understanding Finale, and I never "find that time" because I'm avoiding it. For someone like me, transitioning and taking advantage of the discount for Finale users who want to purchase Dorico makes sense.

On Reddit it blew up as a topic within hours of the announcement. There are some T'd off folk there. A composer who has 35 years of work sitting in Finale, for example. Even to convert each one to Dorico by first saving as XML would be a ginormous chore. Then there's the fellow who bought Finale a month ago. Or the one who signed up for a class on learning to use it. What about the poor professor who is about to give classes on using a software that has just stopped existing (sort of)?

The problem, as I understand it, is that anyone who has Finale and has to get a new computer, won't be able to install it to the new computer a year from now. Or if operating systems change too much.

Over and out. 🙂

PianoMonk

keystring If I may....

I bought Finale and Sibelius back in 2009, no subscriptions, own them outright, to run on Windows XP. I never updated either of them, because they both do what I want them to do - allow me to write out a score. I find Finale easier to use, probably because I've spent more time with it. Both programs will convert midi files to sheet music, although it sometimes requires a little tweaking. I keep the old XP machines, desktop and laptop, just to run old music programs that were "state of the art" back then.

I've messed with MuseScore3, free, on my newish macbook, and for free, I can't imagine anything better. I looked at Dorico and didn't find it worth messing with, especially having to pay for it.

Seeker

keystring I now know that you can save Finale music as XML (looks like code) and if I drag XML into Finale it looks like music again.

True, but the details are important. For example, if one has fingerings in a score which is being as exported as XML, these are possible problems.

Searching "musicxml import loses fingerings" I got these results.

Verovio: The issue is reported in the Verovio GitHub issue #803, where fingerings are not preserved during import from MusicXML. The problem arises from the lack of positioning information in the <fingering> elements, causing the fingerings to be automatically placed and potentially misplaced when loading the file into different music notation software.

Dorico: Dorico imports fingerings correctly from MusicXML files exported from Finale, but not from Sibelius, as Sibelius does not use the <fingering> element.

MuseScore: When copying and pasting measures with fingerings, the fingerings may not be retained, especially when pasting into a tablature staff. Additionally, exporting to MusicXML and importing back into MuseScore may also lose fingerings.

Validation Errors: Some MusicXML files may contain validation errors, which can cause fingerings to be lost during import. For example, exporting a score with string numbers 0 (indicating open strings) may result in a validation error and subsequent loss of fingering information.

keystring

PianoMonk I bought Finale and Sibelius back in 2009, no subscriptions, own them outright, to run on Windows XP. I never updated either of them, because they both do what I want them to do - allow me to write out a score.

When you say "own them outright" .... Back in the day when I bought MS Word for my business, I got a CD and when I had to replace my computer, I simply could install the suite again via the CD. At some point I lost the CD and also didn't have proof of ownership and so had to "purchase" it again, but that was by subscription which has to be renewed every year. I've been stuck with that and the "upgrades" making it function less well ever since.

Finale, I didn't get a CD for installing - it was done on-line. I do own it outright as well. When I replaced my computer (because it was failing), I could reinstall it for free - but it was via the site. I hate upgrades because usually they involve bells and whistles of unneeded things, so I don't care about that. The way I understand it, if in some future time I need to replace my computer, I will not be able to reinstall Finale, because the site for reinstalling it (for free) will be gone. In your case, if you got a new computer, could you reinstall (do you have something like my CD for the original MS Word?).

I didn't know we were able to stay with the old Windows XP. I have Win11 which came preinstalled when I had to replace my computer. The same happened with a friend, and I seem to remember that Win11 messed with the older Finale.

PianoMonk

keystring My XP machines are strictly off line, and I've gutted most of the Microsoft bloat to make them run better. Although, the XP bloat isn't nearly as bad as newer systems, especially the 64bit stuff. Anyway, when I got the original Finale 2009 and Sibelius 6, I created an ISO file for each and saved them to both CD's and a backup drive. So, even when I've changed a hard drive, or built an entirely different PC, I can re-install them. I got in the habit of making ISO's of almost everything, games, apps, etc., back in my I.T. days. Kind of geeky, I know.

I have "hard versions" of Office from 97 to 2000, and have reinstalled them from time to time on those XP dinosaurs. But I hardly use Word, or any of the MS Office programs. I also tried Open Office, which is an open source suite similar to MS Office, and works on almost any computer, free as well.

For "Office-type" chores, I find everything that comes with a Mac totally sufficient, maybe even better. And for serious writing, I use Scrivener, and like it much better than Word.

Newer versions of Windows won't run old 23bit programs, mainly for Internet security reasons. That's why I have old XP machines, to play some old games, run music software, but would never go online with them.

I know this doesn't help with your Finale problem. If I remember, when I looked into Dorico, they wanted a lot of personal info and, what I felt were, unreasonable permissions, just to install the demo. So, I never even tried it.

keystring

PianoMonk My XP machines are strictly off line, and I've gutted most of the Microsoft bloat to make them run better. Although, the XP bloat isn't nearly as bad as newer systems, especially the 64bit stuff. Anyway, when I got the original Finale 2009 and Sibelius 6, I created an ISO file for each and saved them to both CD's and a backup drive. So, even when I've changed a hard drive, or built an entirely different PC, I can re-install them. I got in the habit of making ISO's of almost everything, games, apps, etc., back in my I.T. days. Kind of geeky, I know.

There's the advantage of being knowledgeable and being able to tweak things because you know how. Everything you wrote makes sense. I'm still a dinosaur about IT matters. I hate the way things have been going, with subscriptions, updates that come automatically that add unnecessary bells and whistles - sometimes it impacts my work at an inopportune moment. But that's getting away from the topic at hand.

If I had an extra machine that I could keep off-line and a bunch of other things that would be perfect. I purchased Finale at a time when you got it from the site, and reinstall it from the site. I have a bare working knowledge of Finale, haven't created macros or anything. It makes sense for me to transition, but not for you and others who know it inside out and aren't caught out be anything Internet-wise / new computer-wise in the future.

I appreciate all the insights.

MRC

I used Finale for many years. I knew the software very well: I was a beta tester in the 90s through to around 2018. Towards the end of that period, I became more and more frustrated: the program was hampered by all sorts of old problems which seemed harder and harder to solve.

In 2020 I moved to Dorico. It was a bit rough at first, because its approach is quite different, but it was quickly apparent to me that it was superior to Finale. It's as powerful and versatile as Finale, but it's much more consistent and gives pretty good layouts straight out of the box.

There's a thriving official online forum where you usually get very prompt help, sometimes from former Finale users and sometimes from Daniel Spreadbury himself, the product manager for Dorico. If I hadn't already moved to Dorico, I'd jump at the $149 crossgrade offer.

keystring

MRC I used Finale for many years. I knew the software very well: I was a beta tester in the 90s through to around 2018. Towards the end of that period, I became more and more frustrated: the program was hampered by all sorts of old problems which seemed harder and harder to solve.

In 2020 I moved to Dorico. It was a bit rough at first, because its approach is quite different, but it was quickly apparent to me that it was superior to Finale. It's as powerful and versatile as Finale, but it's much more consistent and gives pretty good layouts straight out of the box.

There's a thriving official online forum where you usually get very prompt help, sometimes from former Finale users and sometimes from Daniel Spreadbury himself, the product manager for Dorico. If I hadn't already moved to Dorico, I'd jump at the $149 crossgrade offer.

I appreciate the alternative insights, and reading your experience with both sets of software. What you write is in line with a few folks on YT who transitioned. the on-line community is a plus. I did notice that the tutorials seemed easier to follow than the tutorials on Finale.
The person I'm studying with is staying with Finale, and is in a similar place as PianoMonk, but advised me that it might be a very good for me to transition over and give Dorico a try. Given how slow I've been in learning Finale, with a lot of balking because it's just not my cup of tea, with the compatibility I'll have the best of two worlds.

Thank you very much for the insights.

PianoMonk

keystring By the way.... MuseScore can import Finale files. Not sure if that would help, but free to try. And, if you have a tablet, Staffpad might be something to look into. I guess you can try the Free Trial Dorico, to see how it feels. Sibelius can also open MusicxXML files from Finale.

MRC

PianoMonk By the way.... MuseScore can import Finale files

MuseScore cannot directly import Finale files (format .mus or .musx). You need to first export a MusicXML file from Finale, which MuseScore can then import.

Both Dorico and Sibelius can also read MusicXML files. In all cases there will be some loss of information, but it's certainly better than starting the score from scratch.

Here's a video from a Finale user who's tried the MusicXML route in MuseScore and Dorico:

keystring

MRC Here's a video from a Finale user who's tried the MusicXML route in MuseScore and Dorico:

That was informative. I only caught up to what XML is a few days ago. I had a vague idea of things being saved as XML or .musx" prior to that. I have a better understanding now from that video.

PianoMonk

MRC Yeah, I meant Finale to MuseScore through musicMXL, which is pretty standard.
Here's what MuseScore has to say:
https://musescore.org/en/node/14318

pseudonym58

Since this is a longish thread, I'm not sure whether this has been mentioned already:
It has been subsequently announced that makemusic will continue to support new installations "forever". I guess their legal department advised them that they were setting themselves up for a class action lawsuit if they did otherwise.
It's not expensive to keep a server running with a "back end" application to authorize users' serial codes.

pseudonym58

You will definitely want to test MusicXML export/import before you put yourself in a position where you need to rely on it. It has its limitations.

keystring

I've bought Dorico at the special discount price for Finale owners, and tried the first tutorial.

FrankCox

If this outfit has shut down all sales and updates for their software and intend to do absolutely nothing with it going forward then they should release the software and the source code on a website like github or sourceforge under a license like gpl or bsd.

That way people interested in continuing to use it update it themselves or even pay someone to update it for them in the future.

Anything less is pretty much "screw you jack" from that company.

keystring

Seeker True, but the details are important. For example, if one has fingerings in a score which is being as exported as XML, these are possible problems.

An important point. Since I barely started with Finale with only a superficial grasp of its workings, this did not concern me. I have no work saved. But I did take one of my teacher's simpler files which was set out for teaching beginners, converted it to XML in my Finale, saved it, and dragged that into Dorico and while everything was there, it looked different. I do know, from having read the literature, that there are default settings in Dorico - that you can make the Dorico settings the same as your Finale settings, which is supposed to make it look the same. But that is all theoretical. It seems a lot of work, and I don't know enough about either program.