Ten times in a row!

Animisha

Molly Gebrian says that if you want to fix a mistake in a passage, and you practise it playing both correctly and incorrectly, you reinforce both the good and the bad neural pathway for playing this passage. Therefore you should play it correctly ten times in a row.

When I first read this, I thought, never in my life. When fixing a mistake in a passage, I have a hard time playing it correctly even five times in a row. I use a more friendly method: whenever I play it correctly, I move a button to a new place, when I play it incorrectly, I move the button back, and in the end, I need to have five buttons at the new place. (I hope you understand.)
But I realise now that this reinforces both the correct and the incorrect playing.

However, with Molly's method, the passages are much shorter. Instead of playing a full passage, I play just a couple of notes before the note that needs to be fixed, and then, following her instructions, I stop on this note that I now play correctly. And with this very short passage, it is suddenly fully possible to play it correctly ten times in a row. When I do this, it really feels like I am dredging out a canal in my head leading to the correct note. And there is a new kind of certainty when I play the whole passage.

Not that it is always enough though. Sometimes I can only play the short passage slowly. So I put my metronome on a low number, play it correctly ten times in a row, do something else, then put my metronome a bit higher, and play it correctly ten times in a row once again. 😊

MRC

Animisha Molly Gebrian says that if you want to fix a mistake in a passage, and you practise it playing both correctly and incorrectly, you reinforce both the good and the bad neural pathway for playing this passage. Therefore you should play it correctly ten times in a row.

I've been mulling this over. I don't think "ten times in a row" is the best strategy, and I'm wondering if Molly Gebrian has experimental data to back this up.

It's clear that you need to reinforce the correct neural pathway and let the incorrect one get forgotten. To achieve this, it's not the number of repetitions in a row that counts, it's ensuring (as far as possible) that each time you play the passage, you don't make the mistake.

Even if I play the passage correctly ten times in a row today, maybe because I'm in a particularly calm and concentrated state of mind, this doesn't mean I've already forgotten the incorrect version. It could well be that tomorrow I'm not so focused, and I mess up the passage again.

Forgetting the old, incorrect version doesn't happen in a day. The more often I've played the incorrect version, the longer it will take for it to be forgotten. There's no shortcut: I need to be patient.

So here's what I do (if I can be disciplined enough to follow my own advice!):

Whenever I'm practicing the piece, each time I get to the passage in question, I stop before it.
I remind myself what was the reason I messed up: for instance, I was missing a leap because my back muscles were stiffening.
I play it through, once, very slowly, paying particular attention to the part I might mess up.
Was it correct? Did I use the fingering I've decided? Did it feel comfortable? Did it sound good?
If I can answer all those questions with "yes", I play it again, slightly faster. If not, I know that I must go back to more detailed practice on the offending spot.
If it goes well, I may play it through a few times more, but never more than three or four and always with the utmost concentration.
In the best of cases, I didn't make the old mistake at all. In the worst of cases, I made it once.
That's enough for now! If I keep repeating the passage, there's a danger that I may become less concentrated, start playing mechanically and make the old mistake again. Much better wait until this evening, or tomorrow, and approach the passage once more with a fresh mind and total concentration.

The process of replacing the old incorrect version by the new correct one may take days, even weeks if it's a really old, ingrained mistake. During this process I will have played the bad version only a few times, and the good one many, many times, but never ten times in a row.

Josephine

I tried this as well but I still deleted the 'good' pathway somehow.

It's the ornaments in Chopin op 70 no 2, the recital piece.
I could play them but I thought I should play them better, more beautiful, so I started practicing the ornaments and the bars before it. I don't know what I did, but for the first time I experienced that practice makes permanent. I can't play the ornaments anymore. I tried everything to solve it. Practicing very slowly, playing soft, playing loud, not playing the piece for over a week so I could start over, nothing worked. So I wonder if there is a way to remove the wrong pathway, because now I can't play it correctly 10 times in a row.

Animisha

Josephine

How did it go? Did you manage to fix the ornaments?

Your message became a warning example for me. I was practising my Bach, and suddenly three measures of section 1, the section that I had started with because I (rightfully) thought that it would be the most difficult one, was gone. I had played it correctly many times already, but now I made first this mistake, then that mistake, then yet another mistake.
I almost panicked a bit, because I have memories of another section in another piece, with which I struggled until the end. It never really became solid.

This time, I did not want that to happen. I practised just a few notes, until the first mistake could happen, and played that correctly ten times in a row. Then I did something else, and added one note, and again played it correctly ten times in a row. In this way, I kept adding notes until I reached the whole passage. That was two days ago.

Today, I can still make an occasional mistake in this passage, but both occasional mistakes were random and occurred only once each. So I hope that I have prevented this passage from becoming a problem passage!

Animisha

Oh Josephine, such a nightmare!
Molly actually said that there is no way to delete the wrong pathway, it needs to slowly die by itself.

If you still want to work with it, I think that you need to find a fail-safe way to practise it.
You said that you tried everything, but did you try to first practise two notes? For instance, the first note that usually goes wrong and the note preceding that note. Then three notes, building up before that first note, so the first note that usually goes wrong and the two notes preceding that note. Then the three notes preceding that note.
Once you feel completely sure about these four notes, you can add a note after the first note that usually goes wrong.

Just an idea. Maybe not appealing to you, but who knows. 😀

Josephine

Animisha

No, I haven't tried that yet! If that doesn't work I'll stop trying, and relearn this piece next year, because I want to focus on other pieces now.

BKN1964

Josephine Regarding taking a break between repetitions: I've read studies that show this is a very important part of the process. Even if just taking a few seconds to reset and refocus between repetitions. Not just banging out repetitions back-to-back.

Animisha

PS Good luck, and make sure to take a break after each time!

BartK

I watched her videos and there are lots of very good ideas. These should be mandatory for all musicians.

About the x times perfect method (where x is between 5 and 10) - it works remarkably well but if you watched the videos attentively you might have noticed a flaw in it. If you keep making mistakes and reseting to zero then at the end of the practice your total correct repetitions might be equal to the incorrect ones. For example, let's say you make 10 incorrect reps in a row and then 10 correct ones in a row. The total comes out to zero. It might even be possible to go negative (especially when you're not keeping track of every rep).

A different method that I started using is to count both correct and incorrect reps. I start with 10 tokens in the middle and move them right if I play correctly or left if I play incorrectly. If there are tokens on the left side it means I have negative points and I have to cancel them with correct reps just to get back to zero. My aim is to get all 10 tokens on the right side. This way of practicing means I have to play correctly at least 10 repetitions more than incorrect ones.

This way of practicing is a bit more forgiving than the 10-times perfect way because you don't have to reset to zero when you make a mistake but one thing you have to keep in mind when doing this is that you have to count every single repetition. You can't "try out" a couple of times before starting. Every single attempt counts. If you loose focus and make several errors in a row you notice very quickly.

Animisha

BartK For example, let's say you make 10 incorrect reps in a row and then 10 correct ones in a row. The total comes out to zero.

True! However, instead of blindly following this system, you could be more intelligent about it.

BartK If you keep making mistakes and reseting to zero

... then you should either play the passage more slowly, or reduce the number of notes involved. Play it safe! Make sure that you have a good chance of playing correctly ten times in a row. Once you have done that, take a break, do something else, and then either play just a bit faster, or add one note.

Bellyman

I don't know about the "10 times in a row" but I do know myself well enough that if I can't recall a passage (like the B section of a song), if it doesn't come to me quickly, I know not to keep poking at it because I WILL come up with something that works and if it's wrong am likely to continue repeating it as though that's the way it is supposed to be. Playing solo, one can get away with stuff like that more than if playing with a band or other players that all have to be on the same page. I've gotten called out a few times on that which isn't a lot of fun. Also playing jazz or improv, one can get away with stuff that's not like the original if they don't have to blend with other players... or, you've attained the position of being in charge and everybody plays it like you do, in which case, it is now your arrangement.

Sophia

I haven't finished the book yet ^_^ But I watched a Jazer Lee video where he recommended 7 times in a row. It really works... but I too only take one bar at the time because more than that becomes impossible to do right so many times 😃

@Josephine I have had that experience too, where a passage just seems so illogical to my puny brain that no matter what I try, the "correct" pathway just doesn't seem to want to be formed! What worked for me (in the end) was not to play the next note until I was able to get correctly... what I mean is I'd pause until I was SURE which note would come next and then play it. Not before... even if it would take a full minute to prepare my brain. And suddenly after a few days it would speed up after all. With the correct note for a change 😃

I really should proceed with reading the book 🙂 I'm about one third in now...

BartK

Sophia I have had that experience too, where a passage just seems so illogical to my puny brain that no matter what I try, the "correct" pathway just doesn't seem to want to be formed! What worked for me (in the end) was not to play the next note until I was able to get correctly... what I mean is I'd pause until I was SURE which note would come next and then play it. Not before... even if it would take a full minute to prepare my brain. And suddenly after a few days it would speed up after all. With the correct note for a change 😃

This is exactly what my teacher told me to do when I was just begining. It does work! 🙂

ranjit

I sometimes feel like repetitions aren't the best benchmark. There's a certain feeling you have when you "get it", when it clicks in your mind, and sometimes doing too many repetitions in a row feels like it influences your concentration and gets you out of that zone.

It's like how desperately writing something down ten times in a row won't necessarily mean it'll be remembered for a test and might even be counterproductive. Sometimes it's better to just really focus, understand it once and move on.

But I can't think of a formula for this.

thepianoplayer416

Playing something correctly is both a technical exercise as well as listening exercise.

Repeating a passage means reinforcing muscle memory to do it correctly over & over. And being an active listener you'd know what the correct version sounds like and be able to tell if you did something wrong right away like when you missed a note or the notes are too far off the beat sort of thing.

Gombessa

I think generally it's a very good idea! Like others, I think "10 times in a row" is more shorthand than rule. You want to get to the point where you are not making the mistake, and start reinforcing the correct tone/feel/timing/muscle memory so that you don't immediately revert back to the habit of the mistake.

I think after that, my own tactic is to stop for 30 seconds (I usually check email on my phone), and then go back to it and try another 5-10 times. Then, I move on. At the end of the practice session, I'll go back to that passage and get it down another 3 times. If I don't get it right all 3 times, I don't stress about it. It just a signal that I have to do the same thing next practice session. After 2-3 days, the passage does come together, and it's harder to play it wrong than to play it right.

But the core idea remains: practice it slower, break it up so you are going note by note or half-measure at a time, until you aren't making the mistake, and drill that correct playing until it can become a habit.

iternabe

So, does it follow that during practice, once you hit a wrong note, you should stop and correct it immediately because continue on without correction would be forming muscle memory?

Maybe only after you can play a passage without wrong note but occasionally hit one wrong should you continue without correction, provided that you are aware of the mistake and is capable to right it in the next repeat?

And, if you hit the same note wrong consecutively in 2 repeats, it's time to stop and figure out why and how to correct before it becomes a habit?

Gombessa

iternabe So, does it follow that during practice, once you hit a wrong note, you should stop and correct it immediately because continue on without correction would be forming muscle memory?

My personal take is that there are many ways to practice, and what's right for one person isn't always right for everyone. And sometimes you practice to focus on things other than just hitting the right note, so I wouldn't grind everything to a halt to focus exclusively on that.

I don't usually follow my own advice above, either. Oftentimes I'll just try to make a mental note where I notice I'm frequently hitting a wrong note, and see if it's something I can correct organically over the week. If that doesn't work, I might then take 15 minutes of a specific session just to address that passage. It depends. For me, being note-perfect isn't really my top goal (since I'm rarely good enough to do it anyways!).

But if your focus for a session is on correcting a nagging mistake, then yes, I think it's very good idea to stop, break the habit, and just drill the right note.

ranjit

iternabe So, does it follow that during practice, once you hit a wrong note, you should stop and correct it immediately because continue on without correction would be forming muscle memory?

Make sure not to make a habit of abruptly stopping at that point, though. That can cause hesitations during the performance.

Animisha

iternabe So, does it follow that during practice, once you hit a wrong note, you should stop and correct it immediately because continue on without correction would be forming muscle memory?

My take on this is that one random mistake is just random, and when you have played this correctly many times, and you play it correctly immediately afterwards, it is not necessary to make a big deal out of it.

iternabe And, if you hit the same note wrong consecutively in 2 repeats, it's time to stop and figure out why and how to correct before it becomes a habit?

Yes!

danno858

This sounds a lot like the theory presented in Scales Bootcamp - a great book for learning scales and keys

Josephine

BKN1964 Regarding taking a break between repetitions: I've read studies that show this is a very important part of the process. Even if just taking a few seconds to reset and refocus between repetitions. Not just banging out repetitions back-to-back.

It's true, I always do this and it works to memorize faster.

TC3

ranjit Strongly agree with this. I make myself continue for at least another measure or two and stop intentionally. Otherwise I'm developing the "crash & burn" habit of performing ...

Pallas

I watched two videos that might be of interest. Yesterday, in my lesson, I thought I had handled all the "random" mistakes in a piece, because I could play it at home perfectly, but in the lesson, I still made many, many mistakes. I went straight home after the lesson, sat immediately at my piano, and played the piece with zero mistakes. I accept that it might still be nerves, but I've still been looking at other reasons.

My teacher has been telling me that the solution is to practice more slowly. Until I watched these two videos, I didn't thoroughly understand why practicing more slowly would help (and just how slowly). But now I have a new hypothesis: I have learned my pieces ONLY with muscle memory, and my muscle memory is deeply encoded to my own piano.* As soon as the environment changes, my muscle memory falters. And because of the way I practice (focusing ONLY on being able to play at full tempo 10 times in a row correctly), I haven't been training the other kinds of memory. I need to change that.

My hypothesis is based in the difference in the way I've been practicing scales and my pieces. I practice scales extremely slowly, with variations in pattern and emphasis. I change the tempo, the note groupings, the dynamics, and I even reverse the order, sometimes playing treble to base and back to treble. With my eyes open, my eyes closed, looking at the music, not looking at the music. I literally know the scales backwards and forwards. And I nail them in the lesson.

So what I'm going to do is take one of my pieces and learn it the way I learn scales, in order to undo the muscle memory and give the other kinds of memory a chance to grow. I believe that this will close the gap between the performance of a piece at home versus in the lessons (give or take some nerves). I have my first piano "soiree" in early October, and I would like to have one piece I can play as well as I can play it at home.

My teacher's bench doesn't adjust, and her piano is a Clavinova (700-something series) and the touch is extremely different from my acoustic at home, in every way. My muscles don't seem to know what the heck is going on.

ranjit

Pallas Can you practice on different pianos somehow?

TC3

Pallas But now I have a new hypothesis: I have learned my pieces ONLY with muscle memory, and my muscle memory is deeply encoded to my own piano.

This really rings true for me as well. It's not just the piano, either. It's the environment. Even the light in one room rather than another can make a piano feel very different. That's a problem that I suspect a lot of hobbyists such as myself suffer from: playing on the same piano in the same space 99% of the time. If that's right, then it makes sense that playing on lots of different pianos in lots of different places is the cure.