Interleaved practice

twocats

Thanks for sharing! I'd forgotten that I marked "flags" on my trouble spots of the Beethoven cello sonata that I'm working on and you're reminding me to go straight to those instead of starting at the beginning as I usually do. I know it's a bad habit but it's one that's so hard to break!!

TC3

I think I've been doing something like this simply because I have such a short attention span. 😃
Though it's not always switching among completely different pieces: it might be break a long piece into various small sections and then bouncing around among them.

Interesting stuff, thanks for posting!

Rubens

I usually start with block practice when learning a new piece, and then switch to interleaved when the text is memorized, and I don't go back to blocks after that.
I realize from the study that it might not be the most efficient method and that it might be more efficient to do interleaved from the start, but I find my method more satisfying. Oh well.

BartK

Rubens I usually start with block practice when learning a new piece, and then switch to interleaved when the text is memorized, and I don't go back to blocks after that.
I realize from the study that it might not be the most efficient method and that it might be more efficient to do interleaved from the start, but I find my method more satisfying. Oh well.

Actually, if you watch the video she says that for new tasks it's more effective to start with blocked, then serial (which is interleaved in a fixed order), then random. Studies support this.

Rubens

BartK

Yes I didn't watch the video (busted!). I thought the experiment OP mentioned on learning NEW pieces meant that interleaved was better even for that task.

Animisha

Rubens Yes I didn't watch the video (busted!).

You didn't even read my post! 😆

Just for you, here it is once more:

"In one study though, baseball players either did blocked practice, random practice or increasingly random pattern of practice: first blocked practice (AAA BBB CCC), then serial practice (ABC ABC ABC) followed by random practice (ACB CBA BCA). This increasingly random schedule was the best of all.
This is very interesting, because it says that blocked practice can have its place in the beginning, when you are learning something new. So start with blocked practice. As you get closer to a performance, transition to more random practice."

Rubens

Animisha
Madam professor, to me your post feels like going back to school. And I have a pink eye so it burns when I read too intensely. aND in turns out I have been instinctively applying what your post said even without reading it!
😂🤣🤣
All jokes aside (except the pink eye, that is true), your post was fantastic. I'm listening to the video now, while standing in the corner of the classroom😆.

keystring

BartK Yes, this is also exactly why "I played it better at home" is such a common excuse at piano lessons. No, you don't play better at home. You just have the illusion of playing better. .....

This is off topic, but I hope it's ok to address it. The illusion factor may or may not play a role.

A teacher I know asked one of his adult students to record himself playing at home, and eventually applied this to all students. They were to be honest in their playing (don't keep recording until you get your best version). The at home playing was often better, and there is good reason for this. The nervousness in front of the teacher: the anxiety of this "one and only chance", are enough to have a negative impact. In fact there was a psychological effect. When the student knew his/her good playing had been heard, they could then settle down and relax more in front of the teacher. Thereupon their playing in front of the teacher improved as well.

There are also other kinds of illusions, including what we cannot yet hear, or what we imagine we hear. Yesterday I sent a trial recording to my teacher of part of a piece I'm working on. He pointed out four errors involving pedal choices, or not holding down a note in the baseline that would be wiped out via an in-between pedal. I had listened carefully before sending and missed all four. That's a different matter, however.

Sorry for the OT. 🙊

keystring

On topic this time. 🙂

Animisha In the good old days of PW we had discussions about interleaved practice. .....

This was my starting point. Every time interleaved practice came up in the past, I didn't post because I was fuzzy about it and also some things felt familiar. This time I looked it up and got a better idea. Then I watched Dr. G's video linked here. She talks about "random practice" and "blocked practice" - this part I got. The "random" doesn't seem to be the same thing is "interleaved" but at 22 minutes she talks of a study with interleaved and says briefly that it's the same thing as "random". Immediately I again have a quandary in posting. Maybe I'll write about each separately.

I found this article on Interleaved

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/opinion-the-what-why-how-of-interleaving/2021/05

This is the part that seems central:

(article) ..... and helped learners learn more deeply by practicing combinations of concepts with each other? Learning like this means interspersing multiple (but related) concepts to encourage connections between ideas or skills.

This is not the same as randomly practising four different pieces in one practice session with the various suggested timings. That is a different thing, also important and playing a role.

The interleaving as defined in my link and esp. in the bit I quoted, are very familiar to me in various ways. In language teaching a fantastic professor in a postgraduate class talked about "integration". I.e. it's useless to memorize vocabulary, syntax, and grammar rules of a foreign language if you cannot spontaneously use them in a conversation. These skills/knowledge must be integrated into conversations. The teacher's challenge then is how to do that: how do you organize your lessons etc. The "performance" aspect where you are suddenly confronted that Dr. G talks about, that's in there. If someone suddenly talks to you in the foreign language, can you respond, or will you shut down?

Again with the quoted definition: In music I want to get to different sides of a thing. If I'm playing a piece with a difficult passage I might go to fingering: go to how I move more efficiently: go to understanding the chord or sequence or scale - go on a tangent and find other passages that are similar in other pieces and work with those. In fact, I do that. This seems random bouncing around, but it's getting at different sides and aspects of a single thing to get greater mastery. This seems to be what the definition of interleaving is about in the article I found. (?)

Or primary school math: geometry. You draw triangles, squares, rectangles. You make shapes out of straws. You measure them. You find those shapes in your environment. In "History" you notice the triangular faces of pyramids. Science - art. That is one of the things we were supposed to do back when I taught: If you teach something in one subject, can you also touch on it in other subjects? So that whatever the student learns, they get a multiple view and multiple experience of it.

Animisha

keystring The "random" doesn't seem to be the same thing is "interleaved" but at 22 minutes she talks of a study with interleaved and says briefly that it's the same thing as "random".

Keystring, let me admit that I used the term interleaved practice because I find it more beautiful than random practice. Also, random practice sounds so... random, haphazard. Interleaved practice sounds like the conscious effort it is.

keystring

The random practice did not seem to be the same thing as "interleaved". You have four pieces, and instead of spending 30 minutes on each piece for a 2 hour practice session, you flip between the pieces at 5 minute or whatever time interval including random timing. The idea of creating connections is not there from what I saw. It makes sense already when you consider the idea that focus on one thing cannot be maintained for 30 full minutes. The fact of switching focus might also refresh that focus. She also talks about the reality of performance, which comes to you suddenly, and not in the well-ordered world of the practice room.

I could see "random" and "interleave" sometimes happening concurrently.

keystring

Animisha Keystring, let me admit that I used the term interleaved practice because I find it more beautiful than random practice. Also, random practice sounds so... random, haphazard. Interleaved practice sounds like the conscious effort it is.

I am glad that you did, because this led me into that deep dive. In the featured video, Dr. G does refer to a study with "interleaved" about 22 minutes in and states that it's the same thing as "random" - it may be that she didn't study the former and saw them the same because both have randomness in them. I'm concluding that they are separate concepts with similarities and that's important.

"random" = practising different things such as different pieces of music "randomly" within relatively short time intervals. This primes you to be able to perform in suddenly changed environments, when cued to do so, which the "safe womb" atmosphere of the practice room doesn't give you. Also, it will keep your focus fresh. The different things practised don't have a common relationship with each other.

"interleaved" = practising different things, also within shorter time intervals, and these different things are all varying aspects of a main thing you're focusing on. It gives you a many-sided experience of a thing which is a powerful learning device.

I probably do a lot of "interleaved" practice, though I never studied the term. Someone observing me might scratch their head thinking that I pop all over the place and can't keep to any one thing for long. It seems random. But if I tell them the main thing I'm after that they all have in common, they'd see that it's not actually random.

I'd want to do both, actually. There's a "curve ball" aspect to "random" - when you're thrown a curve ball you have to come up with solutions to unexpected things you never thought about. "interleaved", having a purpose behind it, doesn't have that. This topic has made me think about that.