Learning two hand multi-octave scales

bassclef · 2024-08-14T01:08:24+00:00

I've been working on scales (C, Am) (G, Em) and (D, Bm). All those scales I'm smooth at slow speed, single or two hands together over one octave. I've been...

rogerch

You might try learning the scales with more sharps or flats first: E, B, F#, Db, Ab. I find with these scales that after using the wrong finger things fall apart quickly, and the faster feedback makes them easier to learn. Once those are mastered it may be easier to learn the scales with fewer sharps or flats because of the successful experience learning the scales with more sharps or flats.

Regarding F# being tricky: I agree that it's trickier than B and Db. What helped me was breaking the keyboard up into two groups: C#/D# in one, E#,F#,G#A#B in the other. Once I oriented myself that way it got less tricky.

BartK

I know some people are enthusiastic but you should probably wait for more people to reply before jumping to conclusions. For example, your original message was at 3 am my time and I have only read the discussion now.

Personally, I don't think learning all the scales in a short time is a good pedagogical approach. I did that when I was a beginner but I think I would have benefited more from focusing on one or a few core ones first.

YMMV.

Pallas

BartK Personally, I don't think learning all the scales in a short time is a good pedagogical approach.

BartK, pretty sure we have people with insomnia talking with people from international time zones here. Very dangerous! You never know what kind of mischief we'll get up to when the mods are asleep. 😝 Anyway, everyone who answered did so with their lack of credentials on full display.

Anyway, I'm learning scales as part of lessons (not all at once but in pairs, the major and relative harmonic minor, starting with C Major), but I'd like to hear the downside of learning all the scales at once if someone wants to.

iternabe

BartK Personally, I don't think learning all the scales in a short time is a good pedagogical approach. I did that when I was a beginner but I think I would have benefited more from focusing on one or a few core ones first.

@Pallas I can tell one downside from my own experience - it takes up a whole lot of my practice time! I am very interested to hear @BartK to talk more on this topic in detail, too.

I'll admit I am one of those beginners who foolhardily set out to learn all the scales. The thought was if this is something that I will need learn, and it seems to take most people a long time, why not start it early. I am not thinking of usefulness musically in the near term, but rather looking it as a kind of finger exercise and challenge to prove I am motivated to learn piano in the long run.

I am learning the scales one-by-one, though. I have a set tempo and standard that I must reach, before starting the next scale. This resulted in the days spent on each scale quite variable. Some take 2 weeks, some takes a month and half and still going. Although I am trying to learn the major and relative minor scales in locking steps, a recent difficult minor scale has thwarted that. I may need to resist taking up the next major scale to let the minor scale catch up.

Reading some old forum posts, I noticed a comment that maybe instead of going for quantity (i.e. learning them all), one could benefit more from learning fewer more useful ones and focus on raising the speed. In my practice I do realize more and more that as speed goes faster, technique need to change because what worked for slow may not work for fast. I'd like to hear other's opinions on this. Like what is a good speed for beginner to aim for before moving on to the next scale. And once you have several scales under your hand, what next speed should you go for on the learned ones before trying new ones.

The things I do really like about practicing scales:

I always see progress as long as I keep working on them
it works my left hand and right hand equally
play scales slow and as softly as I can really improved my touch and feel
it's a lot of notes to play in a short time which forces me to figure out how to play relaxed

bassclef

BartK

I have a habit of getting ahead of myself sometimes, and upon more reflection I believe your wisdom here is sensible. My primary concern needs to be getting my hand independence resolved before taking additional steps.

I'll continue practicing all the scales I'm working on for single octaves. I'll continue daily working on C two octaves, L and R together, ascending, at very slow speed, increasing incrementally when ready. Once that is well ingrained, I'll add descending. Then when the time is right add more scales.

iternabe

iternabe Also, when crossing fingers, the hand need to snap (close, move, then open again) to the next position quicker than the beat.

I learned this technique from the piano prof here. It has proven very helpful.

Pallas

iternabe I have no expertise to share about why, only guesses, but instead of moving on to the next scale after I learned C major/A minor harmonic, I was asked to play them crescendo ascending and diminuendo descending, focusing on hitting each note deeply and cleanly (simultaneously) as if my fingertips were glued to the keys (she did say she's working to improve my tone). The next level of difficulty I've been assigned is playing the same scales in 3 octaves, in triplets, with cresc./dimin. and learning how to focus on tracking that anchor finger.

It is probably telling that in the lesson, we're calling that segment "technique" and not simply "scales," and we spend half the lesson on it. I think this is how she's fixing my many technique deficiencies (ones I had no idea how to see on my own). I don't know how long we'll stay on this one set of scales, but I'm getting the sense that a lot more is happening than finger independence and getting the notes!

BartK

iternabe

It's not a bad idea in the long run but IMO beginners would get more benefit from focusing on a few core ones at first. That's the idea behind the syllabi like RCM and ABRSM. The early levels have only a couple of keys like C, G, F major and A minor and the harder keys are only introduced later.

The point of scales is not only as a technical exercise. It builds up your knowledge of the keyboard topography. Like, when I play a piece in, say, D major I know the scale has a C-sharp and F-sharp but I don't think about that. I practiced my D major so much that my fingers automatically "know" the shape of that scale and I go to the right notes without thinking about it when reading any sheet music in that key. This is the kind of automatism that you have to build up to learn more advanced music quickly.

But beginner music rarely has many sharps or flats. Usually, the pieces stay within one or two sharps/flats. So, getting really good at those keys first is an advantage for learning your music.

Now granted, scales are also good as a technical exercise but to really master the technique I think it's better to focus on one key to understand and master the movements before learning other keys. If you learn all of them quickly you may not really have a mastery of the required technique and then you might introduce some bad habits in the more difficult scales.

Again, I'm just speaking from my personal experience. Other people might take a different path.

BartK

bassclef
An easy way to get into two-octave scales is to start with contrary motion scales. Start with the thumb on C one octave apart and play both hands like a mirror image - RH goes up two octaves and then back down, and LH goes down first and then back up. This way both hands are doing exactly the same thing, playing the same fingers at the same time. Once you're good at that then you can try parallel motion, which is more difficult.

ranjit

bassclef I did a search and found a couple teachers on another forum mention paying attention to the 3rd and 4th fingers. Thinking of my thumb landing note has been working for me, but wonder if there is a reason why it might be better to think in terms of the 3rd and 4th fingers.

It is more helpful to look at the fingers that are the same in the left and right hand. You can kind of coordinate around certain spots, certain notes. The thumbs don't follow as clear a repeating pattern as the 3 and 4.

« Previous Page