Learning two hand multi-octave scales

bassclef

I've been working on scales (C, Am) (G, Em) and (D, Bm). All those scales I'm smooth at slow speed, single or two hands together over one octave.

I've been recently working on C, two hands over two octaves. It's been slow, but I'm getting smoother ascending, but have to go very slow and even pause to think while descending. One thing that has helped me is to think of where my thumb needs to land, C and G for the left, and C and F for the right.

I did a search and found a couple teachers on another forum mention paying attention to the 3rd and 4th fingers. Thinking of my thumb landing note has been working for me, but wonder if there is a reason why it might be better to think in terms of the 3rd and 4th fingers.

Maybe I'm overthinking this, but two hand multi-octaves have been more challenging than I had thought and want to approach this the best I can for long term success.

Any thoughts or tips that helped you learners? Is there any wisdom that any teachers out there can convey on how you've helped learners develop this coordination?

Pallas

bassclef In the Alfred Scales, Chords, Arpeggios, and Cadences book, each scale has a tip about where the anchor fingers should go, just like your intuition says. Nice work to have sussed this out on your own!

twocats

bassclef I did a search and found a couple teachers on another forum mention paying attention to the 3rd and 4th fingers. Thinking of my thumb landing note has been working for me, but wonder if there is a reason why it might be better to think in terms of the 3rd and 4th fingers.

Hi! I'm not a beginner or a teacher but to me paying attention to the 3rd or 4th finger makes sense because that's what comes next. Otherwise you have to do a little calculation first (thumb is on G therefore I need to use the 4th finger) and that requires more thought.

Also once you are reading runs from sheet music you would write "3" over the note to indicate that, so it seems intuitive to me.

Hand independence is hard! I think once you really internalize it with separate hands it gets easier. At some point you end up memorizing the patterns and then you don't have to think so much anymore, but it can take a while to get there 🙂

ranjit

bassclef I did a search and found a couple teachers on another forum mention paying attention to the 3rd and 4th fingers. Thinking of my thumb landing note has been working for me, but wonder if there is a reason why it might be better to think in terms of the 3rd and 4th fingers.

It is more helpful to look at the fingers that are the same in the left and right hand. You can kind of coordinate around certain spots, certain notes. The thumbs don't follow as clear a repeating pattern as the 3 and 4.

bassclef

Pallas
That's actually the book that I'm following for fingering.

I was struggling trying to get the hang of two hands. First I was trying to think in 3 fingers then 4, then started to read along the staff paying attention to the numbers while playing and that didn't help much. That's when I found that it's easier for me to think in terms of thumb landing note only.

More than anything I think I'm kind of slow on the uptake for two hands. Learning hand independence is not a joke. 🙂

Pallas

bassclef I would not consider myself a rocket ship on the subject either. I've mostly used the Alfred book to follow the fingerings, but there's a little highlighted tip at the top of each scale in the book that has the instruction about which key the 3rd/4th fingers hit, and I'm trying to move to using that. But I also saw a video by this gentleman, and he talks about paying attention to the thumb! So if you have any huge AHAH! I hope you'll share it. I've had a little trouble focusing on it to crack it myself!

bassclef

Pallas

That was a very enlightening video. Besides the technical aspects of getting my independence, I've been trying to figure out a logical way of progressing overall. I was planning on basically moving around the circle of 5ths, but I like how he outlined incrementally moving through all the major scales starting at C and progressing to the next scale a half step above, following the major interval structure for fingering. I can see how that approach can be beneficial.

I'm going to watch that again tomorrow and take some notes. I really appreciate you posting that. It's just what I needed.

Pallas

To address your last question, I have finally mastered two whole scales at 3 octaves, up and down, hands together, and it took slow enough repetitions not to make any mistakes, 3 times in a row, rest for a count of 10, 3 more times in a row, rest again, repeat again, and I did that 3 times a day for a week, and it did eventually sink in, but not until I did it with the breaks. Until then it just wouldn't go in. Hand independence has been very challenging for me!

Pallas

twocats Also once you are reading runs from sheet music you would write "3" over the note to indicate that, so it seems intuitive to me.

Would you mind expanding on this? In my last lesson, I was asked to think of it the way you're saying (pay attention to 3 and 4), so I'm on board with that. Are you saying you would write 3 (or 4) just where there's a thumb under, to keep track of where you are in the run? You were probably crystal clear, but friend, I'm on so much cold medicine... 🤣

bassclef

twocats I'm not a beginner or a teacher but to me paying attention to the 3rd or 4th finger makes sense because that's what comes next. Otherwise you have to do a little calculation first (thumb is on G therefore I need to use the 4th finger) and that requires more thought.

That does make sense. Right now, I'm having to watch my fingers as I move slowly while trying to build some automaticity, but I know at some point I have to stop doing that. I wouldn't be able to anyway if there is more than one octave distance separating them. Paying attention to the finger before the crossover could help in that respect. Thanks for pointing that out.

twocats

Pallas maybe this will help?

https://musescore.com/rroossssoo/scores/4855057

1 is thumb and 5 is pinky and the fingers are in that order. This score is written out with explicit fingerings but as you advance some of the fingerings are implicit. If there's a descending scale in my RH and I see a "3" on the next note my brain knows it means cross over the third finger and play "3-2-1". "4" means "4-3-2-1". So I don't have to write out the fingerings for every note, but the 3 or the 4 is the important part.

Hope this helps and hasn't made it more confusing 😂

iternabe

Use metronome to force yourself to stick to a tempo. Slow down until you have enough time to think about the next notes for both hands without causing any deviation from the beats. Hesitation is worse than slow.

Also, when crossing fingers, the hand need to snap (close, move, then open again) to the next position quicker than the beat. You need to get the fingers touching the next keys, have a very very brief moment to feel the key, then the beat comes and you press down.

Other than that, don‘t over think. Just practice every day, and you will see progress. I guarantee.

Pallas

iternabe I love your reply and agree with all of it, and also my metronome needed to be at one bpm for a while. 😁

bassclef

iternabe

Thanks for the hand movement advice. Noted!

I do use a metronome for just about everything, most of the time. I'm very much on board with that. I made it a habit playing bass, and I want my sense of time to carry over to piano.

iternabe

iternabe Also, when crossing fingers, the hand need to snap (close, move, then open again) to the next position quicker than the beat.

I learned this technique from the piano prof here. It has proven very helpful.

Pallas

twocats Thank you! You have just confirmed that the answer to my question is yes. When we become more skilled, we won't write every finger number on a scale run, just the finger number where there's a change, like having the thumb go under on a scale. If you write in 1 for the thumb, this won't tell you the whole package of information you need to navigate the scale quickly (like in the middle of playing, you freeze and go, was the preceding finger 3 or 4 before that 1, oh no where am I). So it might help the London Contemporary School of Piano dude teach his improv classes, but when teaching students how to note fingering in a score, he would probably teach the classical way, to avoid fast math. So that's why you would track 3 or 4 rather than 1. Whew!

That's a relief. Because I can only do very slow math. Good results! But not Ragtime fast. 😄

iternabe

bassclef I was planning on basically moving around the circle of 5ths, but I like how he outlined incrementally moving through all the major scales starting at C and progressing to the next scale a half step above, following the major interval structure for fingering.

I am going around the circle of fifth. Up to B major (what a bliss) and F# minor (painfully tricky) by now. One benefit that I found is by adding one black key at a time, the fingering difficulty is progressive. Also if you learn the harmonic minor scale, some of them resembles the next major scale in the circle.

iternabe

If your are having more difficulty with descending scales, you can practice descending only by starting at the top and stop and the bottom (instead of going up->down).

I cannot think both hands simultaneouly. So, one hand need to be on cruse-control while I focus my thought on the finger of the other. However, my focus can switch between hands and this happens often. Basically, the hands that’s not changing position is on cruise control, while the hand need to move gets the focus until it settles in the new position. When learning a new scale, sometimes the finger that deviates from prior experience (like going onto an awkward black key) needs to get the focus.

Pallas

iternabe Also if you learn the harmonic minor scale, some of them resembles the next major scale in the circle.

I'm going to look at this! Interesting!

bassclef

iternabe I am going around the circle of fifth. Up to B major (what a bliss) and F# minor (painfully tricky) by now. One benefit that I found is by adding one black key at a time, the fingering difficulty is progressive. Also if you learn the harmonic minor scale, some of them resembles the next major scale in the circle.

Agreed. I'll probably end up working around the circle as well as adding the approach in the video.

According to lists I've seen of the most popular keys in various genres of contemporary western music, the keys at the top of the circle rank mostly at the top in usage. I want to also focus on arpeggios, progressions and cadences, which will take a fair amount of time, and that focused practice will be mostly in those top keys as I build my chops and knowledge. One aspect informs another.

iternabe

bassclef I don’t use the metronome when I’m learning pieces. But when practicing scales and arpeggios, my metronome stays on the whole time.

I also don’t adjust the tempo much. Instead, when raising speed, I go from 1 note per beat, to 2 notes per beat, to 3 notes per beat, to 4 notes per beat. At the same tempo, these progression presents small enough step that’s achievable. Plus, the odd 3-notes per beat provides extra help to solidify the fingering.

twocats

iternabe Instead, when raising speed, I go from 1 note per beat, to 2 notes per beat, to 3 notes per beat, to 4 notes per beat.

With the added benefit of learning rhythms with your scales! Bet you've internalized triplets and quadruplets with this practice 🙂