What separates Advanced from Intermediate pianists

PianogrlNW · 2024-07-29T19:44:50+00:00

This video popped up in my YT feed. I thought this list of 5 differences was insightful. Do you agree with his list? What would you add to it?

rogerch

JB_PT I'm curious if anyone here routinely spends up to 6 months actively working on the same piece?

I'm not sure I'd call it my routine, but I have spent 6 months or more to learn a piece many times. For me, it goes something like:

Learn the notes along with my initial attempt at interpreting the piece
Keep practicing to get the notes secure
Identify and improve sections that don't sound the way I want them to. This may include weeks or even months learning or honing a technique so I can achieve the sound I want
Repeat step 3 until I'm as close as it seems I can get to the sound I'm aiming for

I've gone through this with Beethoven sonata movements, Joplin rags, Linus and Lucy, Bach WTC, and probably others. I think of it as overcoming my lack of talent with discipline and persistence. Another way of looking at it: I like to play pieces that are too hard for me. 🙂

JB_PT

rogerch Your process sounds reasonable, thanks. 🙂 Mine is similar - I just don't persevere as long as you do! I probably tend to give up too quickly. Something for me to consider.

rogerch

PianogrlNW scales at 160 BPM

I went through a phase recently of trying to play scales faster. Some of them I can play close to 100 bpm and still sound OK. If I push beyond that they get uneven, which I don't think is productive. It feels like practicing mistakes so I slow down again...

I'm not sure I'll ever be an advanced player according to the guy in that video. That's OK I still have fun!

rogerch

JB_PT Your process sounds reasonable, thanks. 🙂 Mine is similar - I just don't persevere as long as you do! I probably tend to give up too quickly. Something for me to consider.

One piece I gave up on, many years ago: the third movement of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata. I worked on that piece really hard for at least six months. I got to the point where I was spending huge amounts of time on it and making very little progress. It was driving me crazy and I finally decided I needed to move on. I was disappointed, relieved, and humbled.

It may be better for me to give up sooner on hard pieces, and try to pick easier pieces. Although I have found a different solution: these days I spend more energy learning to improvise than learning pieces written by other people. Improvising is really fun and avoids the frustration of chipping away at a piece that's arguably too hard for me!

JB_PT

rogerch Yes - I get frustrated/discouraged/impatient when I start experiencing diminishing returns. If it's a piece I really love I will return to it after some months, or a year, for another run at it. Getting back to the original topic...maybe (hopefully!) when I cross that threshold into the advanced realm I'll be better equipped to handle the challenges.

BartK

ranjit Not me. The longest piece I've learned so far is a Beethoven sonata, and it took me approximately one month per movement. I get bored quickly so I find I must learn fast to keep up momentum.

I don't think you guys are talking about the same thing. I think what the video means by "learn" is to performance standard not just having the notes in your fingers. Yeah, obviously if it takes longer than a month to get the piece in your fingers then it's probably too challenging but that in itself is not "learning" the piece. It's just the beginning of learning it.

ranjit

BartK Talk about learning difficult pieces to performance standard is hard for non advanced pianists. They mostly never play such pieces at performance standard.

SouthPark

You can have whatever 'advanced' pianist you like. Everybody is different. They can be 'good' in their way on piano. And we can be 'good' in our way on piano.

Bellyman

Had a hard time watching the video. A lot of it didn't really make a lot of sense to me in practical terms. (?) Seemed lots of "subjective" stuff in there. (?)

I do kinda understand what AI music sounds like, it grinds on me, have a hard time listening beyond a few minutes. Can't quantify exactly why. It's possible some of what he was trying to say was related to that idea.

No disrespect intended. Just didn't really "connect" with the video.

BartK

ranjit Talk about learning difficult pieces to performance standard is hard for non advanced pianists. They mostly never play such pieces at performance standard.

Performance standard depends on your level. The simplest definition is the standard you could reasonably play it in a recital and be satisfied. This is generally what teachers mean when they talk about having "learned" a piece. Of course, it doesn't mean a beginner can get a piece to the same level that a professional would play that same piece.

SouthPark

It definitely is subjective ... as performance standard isn't holy grail. It's ones own enjoyment is what counts in my opinion. And as usual ... everybody has their own opinion etc.

If somebody has to do this for their work/job/financial etc ... then sure .. there needs to be focus on some particular hard yards.

What I like about what the guy in the vid says is artistry. My interpretation is ..... hear/listen ... and use the piano to generate some magic. My motto is ... have confidence in oneself, and keep listening to music ... and just keep on practising and learning and building/developing and growing. Keeping at it will get you to special states and make you formidable. That's if being formidable is important to you. It's not important to me though. I just want to play piano and my other music instruments. And that is indeed what I do - play piano and my other instruments. And I enjoy it more than a lot - it is music paradise and music playground.

iternabe

The part of "metronome-precise inner pulse" - I used to be a firm believer of that. Then one day I watched Graham Fitch's lesson on metronome use and he suggested if you go find famous recordings of some baroque music, set the metronome based on the opening bars, then let both music and metronome play, and you'd be surprised to find that the pianist do drift from the metronome even after just a few bars. Of course he is not trying to say a steady pulse is not important. You'll need to watch the video to get what he tries to convey. I suppose there is a fine line between being precise and being un-human.

WieWaldi

iternabe he suggested if you go find famous recordings of some baroque music, set the metronome based on the opening bars, then let both music and metronome play, and you'd be surprised to find that the pianist do drift from the metronome even after just a few bars.

Offtopic:
Does anybody know an app, that allows you to tap the tempo. But unlike a metronome app, it should record the tapped speed over a longer time and display it within a graph. This would very interesting for me to check if I speed up and slow down within my own recordings. (And in famous recordings of some baroque music 👆)

iternabe

WieWaldi The Soundbrenner metronome app on iPhone has a tap to set tempo feature. But I don’t know if it can graph it.

I suppose someone would know how to do this in Reaper?

WieWaldi

iternabe Many metronome apps have a tap tempo feature. They just show the current tempo. (Or average tempo of last 4 taps or so). But not a recording of an entire piece + graphical/tabular output.

Maybe one day I'll learn how to implement a smartphone app. This would be a nice 1st app to start out... shouldn't be that hard to do. Just make it.

JohnCW

What sets an advanced play apart from an intermediate one? How about as simple as easily able to competently play a range of very challenging pieces.
On second thoughts perhaps not even as complex as that. My other instrument is the guitar, and some of players I know and consider 'advanced' don't really play much fancy stuff. Its how solidly what they do play that sets them apart.

SouthPark

It's like this. What sets one person apart from another? Well --- they're different. That's about it.

bSharp

I wonder what teachers would say if you were to ask them the same question ...

Bellyman

What goal is in mind may make a difference as well.

Is the goal playing something "complicated" or extremely fast, or having lots and lots of notes to play perfectly? Is the goal playing something pleasing to kids? Is the goal "success" in playing whatever music you are playing?

An example comes to mind. Anyone ever hear Randy Newman perform the theme from Toy Story? There's an example of a song that was sung by someone who doesn't even come close to Pavarotti in vocal abilities, someone who doesn't play the piano in big flashy ways like Liberace, and yet millions of kids (and a fair number of adults) find themselves with that tune running through their heads, just like Randy sand and played it, with lots of YouTube tutorials on how to do it just like Randy did it. Would that qualify as "advanced"? The kids don't care one iota.

PianogrlNW

Bellyman An example comes to mind. Anyone ever hear Randy Newman perform the theme from Toy Story? There's an example of a song that was sung by someone who doesn't even come close to Pavarotti in vocal abilities, someone who doesn't play the piano in big flashy ways like Liberace, and yet millions of kids (and a fair number of adults) find themselves with that tune running through their heads, just like Randy sand and played it, with lots of YouTube tutorials on how to do it just like Randy did it. Would that qualify as "advanced"? The kids don't care one iota.

I think the guy in the video was talking only about classical pianists, not pop or jazz pianists. I watched RN perform You Got A Friend in Me playing solo piano, no backup band. Randy is known more for the songs he’s composed and his singing style more than his pianistic skills. He’s a very good pianist who has the ability to connect with people using his captivating tunes and lyrics, sense of rhythm and overall artistry. I would say Randy is beyond advanced in the pop world. He’s a pro!

SouthPark

Nothing separates intermediate from advanced - as somebody or some people correctly mentioned - it's subjective, and the music and abilities extend in various different directions in the skills and abilities space. Lots of different states. And somebody's take on 'advanced' can be different to that of somebody else. So - nothing separates. There's going to be uncertainty and/or 'overlap'.

PianogrlNW

SouthPark Nothing separates intermediate from advanced - as somebody or some people correctly mentioned - it's subjective, and the music and abilities extend in various different directions in the skills and abilities space. Lots of different states. And somebody's take on 'advanced' can be different to that of somebody else. So - nothing separates. There's going to be uncertainty and/or 'overlap'.

I don’t agree with you on this. I think if you asked 10 experienced teachers to assess the skill levels of several amateur pianists, they would agree on the skill level of that student. It’s not that hard to figure out. The 5th point made in the video is that an advanced pianist is able to play pieces at the RCM 10 level competently after working on them for about 6 months. The RCM, ABRSM, Trinity levels are benchmarks for achieving a certain competency at the piano. It’s not very subjective.

I would add a 6th point to his list. That is the ability to competently play pieces from all periods of classical music. I think that shows the pianist has depth in their repertoire and an understanding of the techniques needed to play pieces by a wide variety of composers.