What separates Advanced from Intermediate pianists

PianogrlNW

This video popped up in my YT feed. I thought this list of 5 differences was insightful. Do you agree with his list? What would you add to it?

JB_PT

I subscribe to this channel but hadn't got around to watching the video until you posted. I thought it was good and definitely gives me some concrete things to aim for/think about. Other than scales at 160 BPM. Noooooooo. 😂

The only area (from that list) where I can say I'm edging into advanced is with regards to pulse/rhythm. For the other 4 I have to say I'm firmly in the intermediate category.

The only thing that surprised me was where he said it should (or generally does) take 3-6 months to learn a piece. I wonder what that looks like. A couple weeks learning the notes, then you get to your target tempo, then you spend months working on interpretation? I haven't experienced this yet. My teacher did recommend I spend up to 6 months on one of my pieces last year, but I only lasted about 3 months before I felt like I hit a wall and didn't really know how to improve it any further. I could have asked....but I just quietly retired it and focused on my shiny new pieces. I'm curious if anyone here routinely spends up to 6 months actively working on the same piece?

ranjit

JB_PT I'm curious if anyone here routinely spends up to 6 months actively working on the same piece?

Not me. The longest piece I've learned so far is a Beethoven sonata, and it took me approximately one month per movement. I get bored quickly so I find I must learn fast to keep up momentum.

That said, the whole polishing phase can take several months and it keeps getting more detailed and precise as your technique improves. But that's often passive work -- learn other pieces and maybe play this old piece once or twice a week, work on some aspects of control, etc.

rogerch

JB_PT I'm curious if anyone here routinely spends up to 6 months actively working on the same piece?

I'm not sure I'd call it my routine, but I have spent 6 months or more to learn a piece many times. For me, it goes something like:

Learn the notes along with my initial attempt at interpreting the piece
Keep practicing to get the notes secure
Identify and improve sections that don't sound the way I want them to. This may include weeks or even months learning or honing a technique so I can achieve the sound I want
Repeat step 3 until I'm as close as it seems I can get to the sound I'm aiming for

I've gone through this with Beethoven sonata movements, Joplin rags, Linus and Lucy, Bach WTC, and probably others. I think of it as overcoming my lack of talent with discipline and persistence. Another way of looking at it: I like to play pieces that are too hard for me. 🙂

BartK

ranjit Not me. The longest piece I've learned so far is a Beethoven sonata, and it took me approximately one month per movement. I get bored quickly so I find I must learn fast to keep up momentum.

I don't think you guys are talking about the same thing. I think what the video means by "learn" is to performance standard not just having the notes in your fingers. Yeah, obviously if it takes longer than a month to get the piece in your fingers then it's probably too challenging but that in itself is not "learning" the piece. It's just the beginning of learning it.

PianogrlNW

@"JB_PTI'm curious if anyone here routinely spends up to 6 months actively working on the same piece?

I usually give myself 6 months to learn a piece that I put in the challenging, but doable category. At least half of that time is spent on musical interpretation and working on difficult passages. I’ve worked on more challenging pieces for more than 6 months but never more than 9 or 10 months. And I’ve worked on less challenging pieces for about 3 months.

As for the scales at 160 BPM, forget about it. Maybe I need to get back to working on scales.

rogerch

PianogrlNW scales at 160 BPM

I went through a phase recently of trying to play scales faster. Some of them I can play close to 100 bpm and still sound OK. If I push beyond that they get uneven, which I don't think is productive. It feels like practicing mistakes so I slow down again...

I'm not sure I'll ever be an advanced player according to the guy in that video. That's OK I still have fun!

ranjit

I recently managed to get up to 160 bpm with scales, albeit not perfectly. I felt pretty proud of myself after that.

And now, back to evenness...

JB_PT

rogerch Your process sounds reasonable, thanks. 🙂 Mine is similar - I just don't persevere as long as you do! I probably tend to give up too quickly. Something for me to consider.

rogerch

JB_PT Your process sounds reasonable, thanks. 🙂 Mine is similar - I just don't persevere as long as you do! I probably tend to give up too quickly. Something for me to consider.

One piece I gave up on, many years ago: the third movement of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata. I worked on that piece really hard for at least six months. I got to the point where I was spending huge amounts of time on it and making very little progress. It was driving me crazy and I finally decided I needed to move on. I was disappointed, relieved, and humbled.

It may be better for me to give up sooner on hard pieces, and try to pick easier pieces. Although I have found a different solution: these days I spend more energy learning to improvise than learning pieces written by other people. Improvising is really fun and avoids the frustration of chipping away at a piece that's arguably too hard for me!

JB_PT

rogerch Yes - I get frustrated/discouraged/impatient when I start experiencing diminishing returns. If it's a piece I really love I will return to it after some months, or a year, for another run at it. Getting back to the original topic...maybe (hopefully!) when I cross that threshold into the advanced realm I'll be better equipped to handle the challenges.

ranjit

BartK Talk about learning difficult pieces to performance standard is hard for non advanced pianists. They mostly never play such pieces at performance standard.

SouthPark

You can have whatever 'advanced' pianist you like. Everybody is different. They can be 'good' in their way on piano. And we can be 'good' in our way on piano.

Bellyman

Had a hard time watching the video. A lot of it didn't really make a lot of sense to me in practical terms. (?) Seemed lots of "subjective" stuff in there. (?)

I do kinda understand what AI music sounds like, it grinds on me, have a hard time listening beyond a few minutes. Can't quantify exactly why. It's possible some of what he was trying to say was related to that idea.

No disrespect intended. Just didn't really "connect" with the video.

BartK

ranjit Talk about learning difficult pieces to performance standard is hard for non advanced pianists. They mostly never play such pieces at performance standard.

Performance standard depends on your level. The simplest definition is the standard you could reasonably play it in a recital and be satisfied. This is generally what teachers mean when they talk about having "learned" a piece. Of course, it doesn't mean a beginner can get a piece to the same level that a professional would play that same piece.

SouthPark

It definitely is subjective ... as performance standard isn't holy grail. It's ones own enjoyment is what counts in my opinion. And as usual ... everybody has their own opinion etc.

If somebody has to do this for their work/job/financial etc ... then sure .. there needs to be focus on some particular hard yards.

What I like about what the guy in the vid says is artistry. My interpretation is ..... hear/listen ... and use the piano to generate some magic. My motto is ... have confidence in oneself, and keep listening to music ... and just keep on practising and learning and building/developing and growing. Keeping at it will get you to special states and make you formidable. That's if being formidable is important to you. It's not important to me though. I just want to play piano and my other music instruments. And that is indeed what I do - play piano and my other instruments. And I enjoy it more than a lot - it is music paradise and music playground.

iternabe

The part of "metronome-precise inner pulse" - I used to be a firm believer of that. Then one day I watched Graham Fitch's lesson on metronome use and he suggested if you go find famous recordings of some baroque music, set the metronome based on the opening bars, then let both music and metronome play, and you'd be surprised to find that the pianist do drift from the metronome even after just a few bars. Of course he is not trying to say a steady pulse is not important. You'll need to watch the video to get what he tries to convey. I suppose there is a fine line between being precise and being un-human.

WieWaldi

iternabe he suggested if you go find famous recordings of some baroque music, set the metronome based on the opening bars, then let both music and metronome play, and you'd be surprised to find that the pianist do drift from the metronome even after just a few bars.

Offtopic:
Does anybody know an app, that allows you to tap the tempo. But unlike a metronome app, it should record the tapped speed over a longer time and display it within a graph. This would very interesting for me to check if I speed up and slow down within my own recordings. (And in famous recordings of some baroque music 👆)

iternabe

WieWaldi The Soundbrenner metronome app on iPhone has a tap to set tempo feature. But I don’t know if it can graph it.

I suppose someone would know how to do this in Reaper?

WieWaldi

iternabe Many metronome apps have a tap tempo feature. They just show the current tempo. (Or average tempo of last 4 taps or so). But not a recording of an entire piece + graphical/tabular output.

Maybe one day I'll learn how to implement a smartphone app. This would be a nice 1st app to start out... shouldn't be that hard to do. Just make it.