Question about Dynamics, Practice and Recording

iternabe

As a self-learning beginner, I’ve found it hard to get good guidance on dynamics. The lessons on YouTube’s Let’s Play Piano Methods channel is great, but when it comes to dynamics, Gail (the teacher) cannot demonstrate it because he says his recordings always seem to lose the dynamic contrast (due to compression?). He does teach how to follow the dynamics on the score. However as to how loud or how soft, he suggests student following their feel.

I am practicing Prince of Denmark’s March this week. It’s A-B-A with dynamics of forte-piano-forte. Faber has a demo track. When I listen to it, the forte to piano contrast is not very big. However, when I record my own practice, and look at the resulting velocity/dynamics graph in Pianoteq, playing the B section in piano and it gets really really soft, much more so then the Faber and other demo recordings I can find online. (Videos attached at the end.)

So, are recordings often not accurately represent dynamics that you hear during live performance?

During practice, how do you judge how loud your forte should be, and how soft your piano should be?

If I just follow what I hear and what I feel, I find a strong tendency to play the soft part not light enough, judging by Pianoteq’s velocity graph. I know using a data graph to judge piano playing seems very un-musical and anti-artistic. But, as a beginner who does not seem to have calibrated ears yet, I wonder having no gauge could be even worse.

I understand there needs to be gradation from p to mp to mf to f. And I understand dynamics do not stay monotonous in a phrase. My question is really about the worry if, on a scale of 10, p-mp-mf-f should be played as 2-4-6-8, but I may play it as 5-6-7-8 which I suppose would be a bad habit to be avoided?

Any help, guide, tips are welcome! Thanks in advance!

Video: my practice recording

Video: Faber's demo recording

rogerch

iternabe I like the high contrast between soft and loud in your recording. Playing softly can be challenging and it seems that you are doing well there. I play scales as softly and evenly as I can to work on control playing softly.

Also important are dynamics within a phrase. I suggest thinking about how to voice each phrase, getting louder and softer to add interest to your playing. You can start out a little softer than the overall volume for the phrase, crescendo to a little louder in the middle, then decrescendo toward the end. You can also vary the dynamics dramatically within a phrase. Try different shapes to see what sounds best to you.

I do hear dynamics in your phrasing in the recording so I think you are doing great! It's nice to hear your playing!

Animisha

iternabe So, are recordings often not accurately represent dynamics that you hear during live performance?

I think that this is a problem for those who record from an acoustic piano. Many recording devices use compression to manage the dynamic range of audio signals. Compression reduces the volume of the loudest sounds and increases the volume of the softer sounds. This results in a more balanced and consistent audio signal.

We who have digital pianos and record the sound not with an external recorder but with an internal recorder inside our piano should not have this problem. However, when we share our recordings and upload them on Youtube, the problem is that YouTube applies audio compression to videos uploaded to its platform...

Sgisela

iternabe I think your use of dynamic contrasts in the piece was very effective. I wouldn’t think of dynamics as something absolute. What I mean by this is that your mezzoforte doesn’t need to be the same as someone else’s mezzoforte, or even your own on a different piece. In that sense, I think over-utilizing the velocity graph (or taking it too literally) could be counterproductive.

When I think about dynamics and how they operate in a piece, I think about the character and style of the piece. After that, I also think about lines. This is an arrangement of a Baroque era piece that was written for organ. On the organ, you can’t produce different dynamic qualities by anything your hands and fingers do. The contrasts are brought out with the use of different stops. As it is written, the overall dynamic range is from piano to forte. It’s not pppp to ffff. The dynamic changes are abrupt, but they’re not massive, and I think this is all part of conveying a Baroque sensibility. I honestly think you did a very good job.

With regard to the graph, I think it’s interesting that you’re pointing out that you hear a larger variation in the dynamics compared to the demo recording, and yet the velocity graph is if anything telling you that your piano is not sufficiently piano — which means that the contrast should be greater. While yes, there will be some things compressed/lost in an audio recording of an acoustic piano, I don’t think that’s the main thing that’s going on. I think that in the demo performance, the pianist was consciously going for a more subtle difference between the dynamic ranges. I don’t think one decision is right and the other is wrong. I think there’s a spectrum of choices that you can make, and the piece will work. But I don’t really think it would make a lot of musical sense to try to get the contrast much greater than how you’re currently playing it — so I wouldn’t aim for exactly where the graph is telling you ‘piano’ should be.

That said, the graph is pointing out that you’re playing with distinct dynamics in the parts of the piece marked forte vs marked piano, and I think that’s the more valuable part of what the graph is showing you.

hebele

I do have the same worries about dynamics like you. Only difference, when I go with my feelings I tend to play very soft. And get occasional ghost notes 😞 So I will keep an eye on the answers here 👀.

I find pianoteq's velocity graph is useful to see the variations and consistency I am hitting. But I don't try to hit exact markings in the graph. Because actual dynamics may depend on many factors (pianoteq's "Dynamics" slider, system volume etc.). Well.. maybe that is just because I don't really understand everything goes in there 🙂

Also I remember Gail saying "My forte might be different after my morning coffee.". So I suppose that boils down to "use your ears".

iternabe

rogerch Thank you for the encouragement! I, too, find practicing scales softly has improved my feel between the finger and the keys. Also, that‘s great tip about voicing the phrase.

pseudonym58

Sounds like the demonstration recording is computer-realized (MIDI + sampled voices). I prefer your playing.
On an acoustic instrument, there's definitely an advantage in being able to present many gradations of "piano" (volume) in that the coloring can be more varied, and the performance is as a result more interesting. I chose my acoustic piano partly because the keyboard seems to offer a little more resistance (whatever factors contribute to that) and as a result I feel like I can obtain a greater variety of tone colors. On a digital device, the palate might be somewhat more limited, but you might as well get whatever you can.

Simonb

Hi Iternabe

I wouldn't get obsessed with the Pianoteq graph; perhaps use it occasionally just to check that you are adding dynamics in your playing, and it's not just a flat graph! Advice you will often see given is to sing the phrases you're playing and imagine how that would sound.

When I first re-started classical lessons 18 months ago the first thing my teacher said is you're not adding any dynamics - at all! That was the result of decades of non-classical playing. It's something I've been working hard on ever since.

If you are playing music strictly from the written sheet music there are 2 main ways you can personalise a performance. One is the speed you play the piece at, and the second is the dynamics you use (of course there is also phrasing, articulation etc). If everyone played dynamics exactly the same, we'd soon get very bored.

So I wouldn't be too concerned if your forte (loud) or piano (soft) doesn't appear to have as much contrast as you'd like. Since you're a beginner this is a skill that will develop with the rest of your playing over time. The fact that you're aware of it at this early stage is the main thing.

I should say that's just my opinion. I'm not a music Teacher.

Cheers

iternabe

Animisha Usually I record directly via digital output from Pianoteq. But for this comparison (to other acoustic recordings), I recorded using a microphone (as noted in the video description) but made sure no processing was made to the audio track.

Does YouTube always apply compression to audio? I need to look into that.

Sophia

I noticed that my S24 Ultra also levels the sound - I hardly ever hear any dynamics in my recordings and I'm pretty sure I practice them diligently!

iternabe

Sgisela Thank you for such insightful comment! It really helps my understanding of dynamics.

There are, I think, two sides of this: mentally thinking and knowing what dynamics I want for the phrases, and physically making it happen between the fingers and the keys. I know I am a long way from getting the mental part good, and probably should get a teacher to help with that. The physical part, I wonder if the velocity graph is already telling me my deficiency. As you astutely observed, while I was trying to play p as the score is written, my physical touch is still somewhat closer to mp as the graph shows. There appears to be an even softer range of my DP that I am unable to explore even when I intend to. Maybe I am still too tense while playing?

The part you analyze the piece and relate it back to the original instrument is really enlightening to me. A few weeks ago I was learning a Bach piece in the same Faber book. After getting the technical part (which is not much for a beginner piece) out of the way, I was a little baffled because somehow it just does not sound very Bach. The thinking in your analysis just light a bulb in my head and give me a direction to further study. Thank you!

JB_PT

Sgisela What I mean by this is that your mezzoforte doesn’t need to be the same as someone else’s mezzoforte, or even your own on a different piece.

I agree. I think the main thing to focus on is getting the dynamic contrasts that you want, not necessarily what the volume level is. My idea of mf is my teacher's idea of p! And getting to something that he considers a strong f...it's a constant struggle. I've been playing for quite awhile and this is still a big issue for me (I tend to play very quiet and "polite"), so I think it's great that you are already putting some of your attention on this iternabe!

pseudonym58

To paraphrase the Duke: If it sounds right, it is right. 😉

SouthPark

JB_PT (I tend to play very quiet and "polite")

Sometimes I try to play elegant as possible, and other times, I have to put in some extra action hehe.

Iternabe inspired me the other day to play a bit of PDM tune, and I'm probably going to be thinking about how to play it using some of the basic patterns and methods that folks teach us before. At the moment, I played this (linked) 15 minutes ago, which needs a heap of work obviously, and littered with mistakes - but somewhat care factor zero, because once we later get around to putting more thought into dressing it up - and transforming it properly, and having it sound as nice as possible -- the results can be very nice to listen to. At this stage -- we can at least enjoy some sounds of the piano -- and also of course, some of the essence of the beautifully composed PDM tune. Credit to the person that wrote that tune sequence etc.

I'm going to be thinking about it more in spare time to see what I can do - and get those dynamics, and more goodies and interesting sounds and elegance into it. At the moment - it was just along the lines of ideas and also thinking what I'm playing slowly, with mistakes and all. But that's ok ...... I got this! I will work on it. That's the fun of it.

One approach might be to make it as some exercises like playing scales up and down a bit, and maybe some parallel motion, and some arpegg etc. And some contrary motion, and some nice chords and key presses at particular times, and maybe some counterpoint etc. It's usually how much we balance it and how it gels together overall -- as in sounds nice and/or interesting or both -- too much of something becomes a bit --- you know.

In my case --- to make the sound and music etc somewhat interesting - the loud/soft/long/short elements all play their roles - including the nice melody.

LINK1 -PDM1 - WAV

LINK2 -PDM1 - FLAC