Help!

Josephine

Oh no, the first recital here will happen soon and I can't play my piece yet! I hope you can help me.

I want to play a Chopin waltz, op 70 no 2. I'm playing the version for Elise Gavard. There are two measures, were I added the pink color, which I can't play smoothly. I was wondering if you could help me with ideas on how to practice it. I can't play it fast enough. Actually I didn't even learn the second one yet since the I can't play the first one correctly. I can play the hands separately fast enough so it must be possible but simply repeating it often doesn't seem to help.

The other thing I'm struggling with are the trills in the last measures. When I practice the trills slowly from my elbow, or more like lower arm, and then I play the section at the right speed, it often goes well after some practicing, but when I play the piece completely the trills go wrong half of the time again. Maybe someone can recommend an exercise I can try that will help with the trills in this piece.

twocats

Josephine hi! I don't know if this will help but you have a big jump in the left hand and not a straightforward thing happening in the right, so it's not surprising that when you put both hands together that it becomes much more difficult.

I would try focusing your practice on the first three eighth notes with the LH jump, because landing on the correct notes is the hard part. Once you have that down you can add the rest of the bar. Would also recommend trying to memorize these hard sections.

Regarding the trills, can you practice the last 4 bars of the piece rather than just the trills? I think the lead-in is just as important as the individual practice 🙂

Good luck!!

rsl12

Hello Josephine! That first pink measure seems unnecessarily hard. Have you considered substituting it with the more standard version?

Josephine

rsl12

I'm a little bit stubborn, but if I can't learn it then this is what I'm going to do, thanks!

Josephine

twocats

Thanks! I'm going to try that, focussing on the first three notes.

I play the last four bars indeed when I'm practicing the trills. Somehow I can play the trills better when I lean backwards so my arms are more straight, but that's not how you should do that I think? Maybe I have to sit further away from the keyboard.

rsl12

Josephine OK, another idea to make it easier: on Beat 2 of the first pink measure, play Db and Eb with the right hand, and only G with the left hand.

twocats

Josephine trills are a skill that takes time. I could not do a convincing LH trill for many years, and then one day it was just better! Still not as good as my RH though. It's possible that at the end of the piece you're tired already; try not to be too tense.

Josephine

twocats

I didn't think of that, being tired or too tense. I think it's going to take some time indeed to improvethe trills. I'm not only stubborn but also impatient I'm afraid. 😆

Thanks for your help!

twocats

Josephine I'm not only stubborn but also impatient I'm afraid. 😆

Haha I have to admit that I'm the same 😂

You're welcome!! 😄

Sidokar

It is a question of hand independance. There isnt any particular solution other than practising at very slow speed hands together. You also have to make sure you can execute one hand without looking at it, usually the left.

For the trills i dont understand why you mention the elbow ? It is essentially a finger mouvement with some rotation, depending on which finger you use.

Josephine

Sidokar

I meant the upper side of the lower arm. I do want to use some rotation, because I think (but I don't know if that is true) that I will need that in the future for longer trills. Or trills with more difficult fingers. But that's an assumption.

Edit: I'm not sure where the rotation comes from but it's in the lower arm, that's what I meant. I don't use rotation in the wrist for it. But maybe I'm doing this wrong.

Josephine

Sidokar

And welcome here!

ranjit

A few thoughts:

For the first highlighted measure, you could use the fingering 123 124 (24) [for the third] as opposed to 134 in the RH. I don't like the 134 fingering but this depends on the size of your hand. Alternatively, you could use 123 135 (35).
I would initially practice hands separate so that the arpeggio feels comfortable, and so you can accurately judge the distance of the jump.
Once the hands separate coordination is comfortable, break each measure down into three beats, and practice them individually. The challenge of the first beat is synchronizing the arpeggio with the jump. The challenge with the second is synchronizing the hand repositioning in the arpeggio with the LH chord. The challenge with the third is the dotted rhythm and then quickly moving to the third in the RH.
Some long-short and short-long rhythm practice and small groups may be in order to get everything up to speed. You could also practice the RH arpeggios over 4 octaves until they become comfortable.
For the trills, I recommend Nahre Sol's video here:
Also, for the trills, you could initially play them as sixteenth notes to get the coordination down before going for a more fancy trill.

Best of luck!

Josephine

ranjit

Thanks Ranjit! I will watch the video.

I use 123 135, and 24 for the third.

I can play it hands separately. Hands together as well but it's not perfect yet. I will record that section tomorrow to show what I mean. I can play it but it doesn't sound smooth enough.

I'm going to try your suggestions as well!

ranjit

Josephine I use 123 135, and 24 for the third.

I disagree with the fingering. It was old "tradition" to change fingers on repeated notes, which is what is reflected in the fingering suggestion in this score. It looks counterproductive to me.

I would maintain that 123 124 (24) is the most comfortable fingering. If you can use 123 for the first group, I think you should manage 124 for the second group just fine.

If 124 if uncomfortable, then you could use 135. But then take the third with 35 instead of 24. The switch from 35 to 24 is a totally unnecessary hand position switch which will only slow you down imo.

(Also: If you're worried about keeping the right hand legato in the following measure in case you play the third 35, then you can do a finger substitution from 35 -> 25 in the following measure -- you have plenty of time given that it is a half note.)

Josephine

ranjit

It's hard to explain but I like to use 5 because you can use it as a catapult or trampoline for your hand and fall back on the third.

ranjit

Josephine Keep in mind that you also have to coordinate the left hand. I think I understand what movement you're talking about. I feel like it's extra coordination difficulty, but if it works for you, you can go ahead with it. With the other fingering, the whole thing to me feels like one movement which makes the coordination feel easier.

Josephine

ranjit

I will try it tomorrow to find out what works best!

Josephine

I tried to record it. This is what I mean, I can play it, but it's just not smooth enough, you can hear a hesitation.

twocats

Josephine I had to really listen hard to hear that hesitation! Also sometimes with big jumps you will naturally "breathe" a bit (slight rubato) because it's a big jump, and that's ok. It's sounding very effortless to me 🙂

Josephine

twocats

Thanks, maybe I should stop worrying about it.