Playing Arpeggios Rolled Chords

WieWaldi

I struggle with an arpeggio. It is inside a slow and clam piece and this arpeggio must be played soft and faint:

I can take time to place my hands at the keys, but still it doesn't sound nice:
Either my right hand is overtaking the left hand.
Or I press two adjacent keys together. (I tried to roll my hands.)
Or it gets too loud in total.
Or some notes are not played at all because I try to play faint.

I tried for a while to improve on this, but it seems my progress is at snake speed. My last improvement was to make sure my fingertips are placed as much as possible at the end of the keys to have more control. But it wasn't enough.

Is there any method how to practice such things?

BartK

WieWaldi Is there any method how to practice such things?

Very s-l-ooooo-w-l-y.

Since all the notes of each hand are within the octave you should be able to reach all of them and play them as blocked chords. Just play all the notes at once and listen to make sure all the notes come out and are at the right dynamic.

Next, keep your fingers on the keys in the blocked chord position and very slowly play each note from the bottom to the top. The point is to play all the notes at exactly even intervals of time so play so slowly that you can control it. Use your wrists to make a continuous flowing movement.

Then, speed up but very gradually and make sure you still can play all the notes evenly. If your hands overlap then focus on the transition only. Play just the left thumb then the right thumb. Then, add one more finger on each hand until you have the whole arpeggio.

LifelongBeginner

BartK

BartK Very s-l-ooooo-w-l-y.

I remember many decades ago reading a mens magazine about razors that minimize bumps/cuts: "Before we review the top ten let's get one thing straight: it's not the damn razor cutting your face to ribbons, mostly it's you being impatient...SLOW DOWN!" Funny how some quotes stick with us. I've since said it countless times to myself at the piano 🙂

WieWaldi

BartK Thanks, Bart. You give good advice - as always. 👍 I think the slooooooow aproach leads to something. But it doesn't solve the problem with the volume. I have the feeling when I concentrate on making each note about the same volume, they are louder than the music I played before. When I play chords faint, it can happen that that one or maybe two keys are fainter than the 3rd one (without control) but in total I get a mix of multiple tones and it is somehow acceptable. This isn't just possible with arpeggios.

Do you think the best solution is to play the music before a tad louder, or shoud I work on my technique to get the arpeggions softer?

rsl12

Josh Wright has lots of good technique videos. Here's his take on rolled chords:

pianoloverus

WieWaldi Do you think the best solution is to play the music before a tad louder, or shoud I work on my technique to get the arpeggions softer?

Learning to play very softly while avoiding ghost notes is not an easy technical skill. Maybe try watching the video by Denis Zhdanov and how to play softly.

This is of course a very important skill but requires lots of practice and the correct approach.

rsl12

WieWaldi But it doesn't solve the problem with the volume. I have the feeling when I concentrate on making each note about the same volume, they are louder than the music I played before.

I'm sorry to say that playing pp is frustratingly hard, and you will have to practice lots and lots to get better at it! Just remember that the velocity of the key is the important factor, not the force of your finger. I personally think of having heavy fingers that hit the keys with force that is not soft, but the fingers hit the keys slowly.

WieWaldi

rsl12 Sorry - wrong video. This one is dedicated to Sophia. She didn't tell me, she had a similar issue. 🤷‍♂️

Joking aside, most videos only cover either how to play soft. Or how to play a rolled chord. Many handle the fact how to play big chords with small hands - rolled. But not exactly how do both things together. I tried to roll my hand by rotating the wrist. It works to a certain degree, except two adjacent keys like F and G are about played together, while the far away keys have the desired gap between. Then I tried to move my fingers separately. Here comes the uneven volume problem: Simply not enough muscle control.

I guess I will reduce the problem a bit by playing the rest of the music a tad louder and hope I will learn the this control over a longer period of time durung my piano career. I have the feeling I can't force the result within days or weeks. Albeit Bart's approach with playing slowly and the gradually speeding up is worth to follow until I am done with this piece.

pianoloverus Thanks for the video link. I've seen this one a long time ago. Still it is good see it again. Unfortunately - as many other vids - it doesn't address how to play soft and fast together. This focuses on playing softly alone. Or transition from loud to soft. I can play soft. But not soft and rolled chords together.

twocats

Just to be clear, this is a rolled chord and not an arpeggio 🙂

Are you using flat fingers? Make sure your wrist is not bouncing with each note, this will introduce unwanted accents/loudness. Pointy fingers will result in a more direct sound but flat fingers (on the pad or even the side or joint of the finger) disperses the force and you will have a softer sound.

BartK

WieWaldi

First of all, most of the time you don't want to play everything at the same dynamic. Even if it says pianissimo usually that means the overall chord sounds pianissimo but the top note is louder, maybe even mezzo-piano. That means as long as you play all the previous notes softer and relatively quickly, like a rolled chord, then no one is going to notice the slight differences in the loudness of each note because the top note stands out. But for that to work it has to be fairly quick and you have to try to voice the top note slightly louder.

That being said, controlling dynamics is a lifetime of work even for advanced pianists. You just have to continue working on it.

You can go at it from two different directions. You can start with "too loud but all notes clear" and gradually try to reduce the sound, or you can start with "no sound at all, fingers just touching the keys" and very gradually add more pressure until a sound comes out. That second method is known as ghosting and it's often suggested for pianissimo passages.

Sophia

WieWaldi She didn't tell me, she had a similar issue.

This site is not big enough to list all my issues

twocats

Oh also, because it's a rolled chord, you don't let go of the previous notes you keep adding them and then at the end you're holding down all the notes of the chord. That might help your control as well.

Jane

You might experiment with a stroking motion - where you're stroking your fingers out along the keys toward you, rather than focusing on pressing them down.

WieWaldi

Thanks for more input - unfortunately I am away from my piano until Monday. Can't work on this with my Casio keyboard, not really

Another interesting observation by myself. I can roll all fingers of my hand on the table. Preferred direction is from pinky to thumb. (Thy typical "impatient waiting" gesture) This is true for both hands. From thumb to pinky it feels less natural. And to make a nice and smooth connection between both hands (LH has finished, RH continues) is a total mess. Either the motion between both hands overlaps slightly, or there is a gap.

TC3

WieWaldi When I do the waiting impatiently gesture on a table top, it's all finger motion; my wrist, forearm, etc., are all still, basically just lying on the table top. Is that what you're doing on the piano keys? Because I would think some serious wrist and forearm movement would be called for.

twocats

WieWaldi I think it would help if you took a video of what you're doing. Then we could see if it's a technique issue or not.

Sophia

TC3 Because I would think some serious wrist and forearm movement would be called for.

twocats I think it would help if you took a video of what you're doing.

I have no advice of course, but following with interest.) One thing I noticed in one of Wie Waldi's previous recording was indeed a rather rigid wrist:

Sophia your left wrist seems rather rigidly locked in place, which means your fingers are forced to do all the heavy lifting. I have a feeling that your playing might become more musically if you rotate your wrist a little more, towards the finger you are using to play

That was in the How Long Blues thread. I know those weren't rolled chords, but perhaps helpful for twocats while we wait for WieWie's own reply?

Not being critical, just trying to help 🙂

WieWaldi

Sharing a recording is a good point. Just gimme some time to do so

TulipAcid

Dang, I'd never given much thought to rolled chords unless there was some kind of leap needed.

Now I'm obsessing over it!

Dang this site!!!

😉

twocats

Sophia I know those weren't rolled chords, but perhaps helpful for twocats while we wait for WieWie's own reply?

I'll wait for a video of the rolled chords 🙂

WieWaldi Sharing a recording is a good point. Just gimme some time to do so

Sounds great!