Adult Learners Mistake #2

TulipAcid

Interesting video (link to follow).

Charles Szczepanek makes a good point that playing only what you love can be limiting and suggests taking on some Bach, Clementi and Scarlatti (metaphor: eating your vegetables.)

I’ve been a long time vegetable lover (ranked: Bach, Scarlatti, Clementi) but recently fell into Post-Classical dessert mode. That doesn’t make me any better or worse a person than the lover of confections (I also enjoy tastes of Chopin, Brahms, Mendelsohn…) In fact, I do need to vary my musical food groups.

What’s your favorite musical ‘vegetable’?

thepianoplayer416

There are certain vegetables like broccoli or spinich that many people don't like. Some people are impossible to change.

A few years ago met a retired man in his 70s who got into playing piano to learn 1 piece (Debussy "Clair de Lune") his father used to play many years ago. Not sure if he had any music lessons in the past. He learned the piece by watching YouTube video demos iby rote n 6 months. He had no intention to learn to read music saying that notations is like a foreign language that would be too difficult. Doesn't know basic theory like intervals & chords or even how to count. He relied on his memory to recall sound pitches and notes sounding longer or shorter without counting a beat.

Someone like myself who learn with a teacher I get assigned pieces by different composers. We learn to appreciate what each composer has to offer. The retired man only wanted to learn 1 piece that would make him happy and succeeded.

The man showed little interest in anything else. Besides Claiir de Lune, he would only learn pieces that he finds pleasing to the ear and totally by ear. What people find pleasing to the ear is subjective. I play pieces by Bach all the time. Always find several melodic lines stacked together interesting. You have each melodic line that sounds interesting on its own and nice together, Lines that are similar but with variations coming and going in perpetual motion. The other thing that Bach pieces are interesting from a playing perspective. You have to play the notes precisely and work your fingerings around the notes. If you missed a note somewhere, the whole thing would fall apart.

ShiroKuro

TulipAcid I generally like Charles Szczepanek's videos, but I'm not sure I agree with him in this video (except Bach, everyone should play Bach and I should play Bach more)...

For one thing, I don't really think the food metaphor works well here.... or at least, I'm not convinced Ffrench and Einaudi are dessert. And Bach is not broccoli, not by a long shot.

To the more central point, that "playing only what you love can be limiting" ... I'm not so sure about that either. I think adult pianists (or rather, people who are learning piano as adults) should play music, and do exercises or preparatory pieces, that get them closer to being able to play the kind of music they want to play....

pianoloverus

I basically agree with what CS says. If one is learning classical music, studying a wide range of composers is critical for overall technical and musical development, and I was lucky to have teachers who exposed me to a to a large list of great composers. For the last 20 years or so I've played mostly but not exclusively note for note transcriptions of performances by the great jazz pianists, but I wouldn't have had the technique or skill to play this music if I had not been exposed to a large variety of music before my switch to Jazz transcriptions.

I think if one limits the composers or type of music one learns one may miss the chance of learning to appreciate types of music that are not initially appealing. I didn't like Bach and Mozart much as a teen, but it's possible that without my exposure to those composers early on I would have never learned to love their music.

Sophia

I think it depends on your ultimate goals as well. If one has a passion for one type of music only and never feels the need to play anything else, there is absolutely no incentive to force that person outside their comfort zone.

Or someone like me, who started after the half a century mark, age wise. Once I felt I had some necessary basics down, I also thought that life (left) is too short to spend the next decade(s) in agony so that I can play difficult pieces eventually. Heck, I much rather play easier things that I enjoy. If my skills improve, great. If not, also great, I’ll just keep on selecting simpler pieces. I don’t sweat it… that was a deliberate decision on my part.

But if one is young, or ambitious, or both, then by all means they should go into a steady diet of musical healthy vegetables.

keystring

If he is the one teaching these students, would he not be guiding them toward what pieces to play, what kinds of things to practise and aim for? i.e. how is this even coming up?

ShiroKuro

pianoloverus If one is learning classical music, studying a wide range of composers is critical for overall technical and musical development,

But what if one isn't learning classical music? (I mean that as a sincere question). Because I do believe that variety is important for overall technical and musical development, but I'm not sure that the traditional "piano curriculum" is the only way to get it. And I think it makes sense to adjust the curriculum depending on the student's interests.

That said, I agree with you, in that I don't think it's a good idea to only play one composer or only a few composers. So for example, since March, I've played three Ffrench pieces in a row, and the cello+piano pieces I'm working on right now are all by Einaudi. So I've already lined up my next few pieces, and they're by different composers. And I always notice when switching composers or playing a composer for the first time, that there are different "tendencies" and patterns (for lack of a better word) and if I had never played that composer, I might never encounter them.

I think if one limits the composers or type of music one learns one may miss the chance of learning to appreciate types of music that are not initially appealing. I didn't like Bach and Mozart much as a teen, but it's possible that without my exposure to those composers early on I would have never learned to love their music.

I don't disagree with this, but I do think it applies more to younger people (teens and below) than to adults. I started piano at age 30, and I had already listened to a wide range of music (including classical). I'm not saying my tastes will never change, but at this point, they're pretty set. And I'm ok with that.

ShiroKuro

keystring These are general, instructional videos, probably geared at the many adult learners who are more self-taught than anything else. Have you seen any of his other videos? They're in a similar vein. (He does great videos, btw)

rogerch

If you are a hobbyist playing the piano for your own enjoyment, and you’re having fun and not injuring yourself, then you’re doing it right.

If you want to get really good at diverse kinds of music there is all kinds of work to be done that may or may not be enjoyable. But if you don’t care and enjoy playing only one kind of music don’t let anyone tell you what you should do. Just have fun!

thepianoplayer416

Going back to the Problem #1 video of course we're learning new things all the time. We also need to get over the beginner hurdle. Someone in the family want to get back into playing accordion after many years of hibernation. The first thing was to get a beginner's book from a bookstore and start from the easiest song. He quit after a month. Getting stuck in beginner mode brings down your self-esteem that you wouldn't want to continue. First we need to get up to an intermediate level.

My teacher has retired students in the '60s & 70s. They're learning at a relaxed pace and not overly concerned with progress. A number of older people (retired seniors) who got into piano in the 70s & 80s mentioned muscle & joint pains. As we get older, we notice cognitive decline. Being able to play a piece we learned a while ago is already progress. Older people don't mind staying with the same piece(s) after many weeks.

Definitely many people including myself play as a hobby. I'm taking my time learning pieces. When you're with a teacher, you get assigned pieces at the same level by different composers in different styles. Self-learners tend to be limited to the pieces they enjoy listening to. If all you enjoy playing is 1 piece and you would only play it day after day, is this considered progress? Probably not according to a piano teacher but would give you enjoyment at the piano. Learning a new Beethoven piece may not excite you the same way as playing the piece you love.

I know people who took music lessons before. They played the assigned pieces for a few years and eventually quit. When you ask them what composers & pieces they like they can't come up with any. People can be playing at a reasonably high level and develop good techniques yet lack appreciation for music. The pieces people play were like exercises regardless of the composer. People who learned to play dozens of pieces with a teacher ended up not liking music while some self-learners are only interested in 1 or very few pieces but enjoy playing them at the piano.

Simonb

Hi thepianoplayer416

I am retired, and have been for over 6 years.
I play as a hobby, though I take it pretty seriously.
I have formal lessons every 2 weeks.
My Teacher does NOT assign pieces to me.
I've been playing for over 55 years.

Contrary to your post I think you'll find that a far higher % of self-learners give up (earlier) compared to people who are having formal lessons. If a music Teacher is any good they will inspire you, and you will learn to appreciate music, that you might never have considered as a self-learner.

Cheers

BartK

ShiroKuro But what if one isn't learning classical music?

I think even if you're playing mostly the likes of Ffrench and Einaudi it still helps a lot to have experience in a wide variety of music. All of music is built of the same building blocks but each style and each composer uses them their own way. The more different types of music you're exposed to the more skills you have and it becomes easier to play new unfamiliar music.

Sure, you can learn skills necessary to play modern music by playing only modern music but I think you get diminishing returns from studying only one style whereas studying many styles reinforces and compounds the skills in a way that gives you more bang for your buck, so to speak.

ShiroKuro I don't disagree with this, but I do think it applies more to younger people (teens and below) than to adults. I started piano at age 30, and I had already listened to a wide range of music (including classical). I'm not saying my tastes will never change, but at this point, they're pretty set. And I'm ok with that.

Well, I'll offer my experience as a counter-example. I started piano at 35 and I must say my knowledge and appreciation of classical music was quite limited back then. Were it not for being exposed to lots of different composers by my teacher I don't think I would have explored classical music as much. My tastes as an adult have definitely changed as a result of this exposure.

ShiroKuro

BartK ok first I have to confess that I’m sort of playing devil’s advocate here (i.e., my posts in this thread, not just this post). Because I do agree with the basic point that studying a wide variety of music is beneficial.

But I get a bit annoyed and a bit tired of all the disrespect post-classical music gets. I don’t mean in this thread or from people posting on PT, but more just in general and in videos like the one in this thread. There is a wide variety of music that is not classical music. And that’s ok. A piano student can learn and play across a huge range of styles without sticking to the traditional piano learning repertoire.

Also, I think people underestimate the time-plus-motivation problem that adult learners struggle with. I started piano at age 30 (ok, actually 29, but I was very close to 30). And I was able to continue piano through an international move, grad school and huge career change etc. It’s now been over 25 years since I first started learning piano, and I kept playing that whole time. I get myself to the piano even if it’s 10 o’clock at night, even if I can only practice for 15 minutes. I did that through my qualifying exams and dissertation during my doctoral studies … I do it now even in the middle of the semester when I’m in my office working seven days a week for weeks on end….

I am convinced that I have been able to keep playing specifically because my piano time is spent playing music I love. Early on I certainly worked through a lot of pieces that fit into the traditional repertoire, but that has not been the majority of my piano study or my playing.

Certainly I would be a different pianist if I’d worked through a different curriculum, but I might not be a pianist at all if I had been forced to play music that didn’t inspire me.

Also, I have taken lessons consistently almost the entire time I’ve been playing, and I’m taking lessons now. I have rarely had a teacher who advised me to work on more classically-oriented repertoire. (And the one teacher I did have like that was a horrible teacher and a horrible person, so I feel like she’s not a good basis for this discussion.) Having said that, I’m curious now about what my current teacher thinks of this debate… I’ll see if I can discuss it with her at our lesson tomorrow (depending on how much time we have).

Anyway, as I said, I agree that playing a wide variety of styles is important, I just think people are too quick to disregard contemporary music as a beneficial part of that goal.

ranjit

Personally, I think it's best to mostly play music that you like, assuming you are already an adult. That is what has worked for me the best, and time spent on e.g. Czerny had questionable value for me.

I have a decently wide ranging taste in repertoire, although my favorite pieces are always hard Romantic works. So I'll like the occasional fugue (like 1 in 50 of them lol) a lot, and I try to pick the few ones I actually like when I can.

If someone only likes Einaudi, that sounds like a fairly limited taste in music -- but that's probably better as an adult with limited time! You know exactly what you want to get good at. Ideally, find exercises and identify tough sections that will help you with that music. Life is long and you might suddenly like a different style of music someday. I don't think forcing people to play something they dislike musically is a good idea. I prefer getting people to think more deeply about and polish music they already like and understand.

What people don't realize about piano teaching is how absolutely varied students are and how much motivation matters. I was made to feel like there was something wrong with me because I would listen to recordings, get them stuck in my head, and try to recreate that sound or imagine an interpretation. (Instead, teachers wanted me to "learn from the sheets like you're supposed to" accompanied with suggestions that I would never get good otherwise.) Well, guess what? I read an article about Tiffany Poon where it turned out she had the exact same thing! She would get a piece stuck in her head from a recording over the weekend, and then memorize the piece in a few days. Some people are "ear players". It matched what I did very closely, and she was told the same thing by her teachers. But it worked for her, and the fact that there was a point where she was "learning incorrectly/ not following her teacher's advice" is quickly forgotten. So, whenever someone points to a method and says that traditional classical music pedagogy has been very effective for centuries, I take it with a grain of salt.

Sophia

I share that irritation. I think it would be better if those types of videos just speak for themselves, rather than blanket statements about what to practise.

Of course it’s good to widen one’s horizon, it goes without saying that it’s beneficial to learn a variety of styles and skills. And I cringe at many of those “look at me after one year” videos where self-learners butcher a much too complicated piece with dreadful technique and horrible playing. It’s best to learn the conventional way and properly for sure.

I think what rubs me wrong the most about this video is the mention of “mistake”. If he had called it “suggestion” I would have been okay with it.

Lastly, I don’t agree with the veggies vs comfort food sentiment. I’m not into post-classical, so I’ll use a style I do love: boogie. Now that’s both very complicated and rather one-sided. Boogie players are generally considered one-trick ponies. To which I say: so what??

If someone loves boogie enough to never want to play anything else, would that be a bad thing? I don’t think so. My mother was a strictly classical musician with no interest for other styles. And you know what? No one ever told her that she should play boogie more often.

thepianoplayer416

Simonb
You're right there may be more self-taught people who quit. A lot depends on whether a learner can get passed the "beginner" hurdle. Whether we're learning a language or an instrument, if we get stuck as a beginner, we would quit much sooner.

I come from a non-musical family. I started off as a self-learner before getting a teacher. I learned violin in school and can read music in the treble clef reasonably well so didn't consider myself a total beginner. A number of people in the family took lessons for a few years playing only the assigned pieces and eventually quit. At a typical family gathering nobody would mention that they took lessons in the past to avoid being asked to play something. Even after playing for a while, nobody can tell you a favorite composer or a piece he/she likes.

In my younger days I thought that learning music is a technical exercise. People would spend years practicing to get good at it and eventually develop music appreciation. The people around would think the same way more or less. When I started piano as an adult, playing was mainly for stress relief. My attitude to music changed that I no longer see pieces as exercises but something to be enjoyed.

It's good to have a teacher that's inspiring. I know 1 family the father took lessons before but hated piano. All his kids took lessons at some point but quit soon after. They struggled to play off sheet music but got no help or encouragement from dad. Don't think their teacher was motivational either. I've seen videos from the MUSO Music Academy where teachers use fun & engaging approaches to teach Classical music to young people. I'm sure there are great teachers out there but came to the conclusion that some are just "boring".

The debate whether a self-learner is better with a teacher is open ended. There are self-learners who would watch hours of learning videos online and ended up more confused. Others would be focused even learning several pieces they like for the first year and nothing else. Many self-learners compiled videos of their playing into progress videos. The other day came across the video of someone who pushed himself to learn advance pieces in the first year instead of starting from easier ones in a step-by-step approach. And he claim that he is enrolled in a university music program later in the year. Based on what he posted online, he's someone who started as a self-learner and progressed to the point he would be attending music classes at an university level.

IMO a good teacher is 1 factor to making progress but a lot depends on the individual. Someone with a keen interest in music would listen for many hours and be able to figure out how different pieces are composed or arranged. He/she would go much further in a year even as a self-learner.

ranjit

thepianoplayer416 I think starting as a self-learner did me good, frankly. I had some unconventional ideas of how I wanted to interpret classical music. I would have quit much sooner if I were forced to do it how teachers prefer. I feel much more confident disagreeing with teachers and coming up with my own ideas since I was self-taught at one point, I think. I would have quit much sooner if a teacher had forced me to learn their way -- and pretty much all of mine have and still do.

I wish I had been able to get a teacher sooner, but the first year or so of self-teaching was absolutely essential for me to discover my voice and what I liked. I somehow didn't care so much about difficulty, so I played hundreds of tunes by ear, learned (and forgot) a bunch of movie arrangements, attempted sections of very hard Liszt pieces (and well-known pieces like Fur Elise and Turkish march), picked up improvisation, learned my scales in all keys, watched hundreds of videos and experimented a lot. I honestly haven't been getting through that kind of sheer quantity of music in a while and that beginner infatuation phase really taught me a lot.

ShiroKuro

Thanks to @ranjit for reminding me of this thread, I meant to post about this yesterday.

I talked to my teacher about this yesterday, in terms of first, that I haven’t learned/worked through much traditional piano literature, second, whether there are holes in my technique as a result, and third whether I would be able to learn the classical pieces I’m interested in without doing some preparatory work or playing some specific set of learning pieces first.

She said she doesn’t think there are holes in my technique and she said that, looking at the pieces I’ve worked on lately (both with her and pieces I played before her but showed her), there’s so much variety there that there’s not really something I’m missing in terms of playing technique etc. (this excludes jazz, ragtime ofc).

She also said that at the level I’m at, I’m more than ready for something Schubert’s impromptu, or pieces like Arabesque or Reverie (i.e., some of the few classical pieces I’d be interested in playing).

So this post might sound a little defensive (sorry!) but my point is, my discussion with my (very traditionally, classically trained) teacher confirmed for me that there are ways to get a good variety in your rep through contemporary or post-classical music, without working through a traditional piano curriculum.

TulipAcid

I ate my vegetables today and sightread through 3 of the slower works from Hindemith’s Ludus Tonalis.

How did I do? Who knows! What did I gain? Practice reading accidentals with no clues from the musical context whether I struck the correct notes.

I would like to gain more appreciation for atonal classical music. Is it misunderstood by the masses in which I find myself? Or is it good? 😉

Sometimes I do, othertimes I think, in this case, I’m preparing repertoire to scare children at Halloween.

ShiroKuro

TulipAcid Sometimes I do, othertimes I think, in this case, I’m preparing repertoire to scare children at Halloween.

🤣🤣🤣

I'm not a fan of atonal music myself, but I bet it's good for sightreading practice!