Pedal technique in classical crossover music

TulipAcid

Apparently that’s what Apple Music calls post-classical…

Anyway, I’ve been working my way through a few where I go hmmm, what to do…listen to the composer/performer and still have questions. Please inform me, I would love it. So far, my rule of thumb is to monitor for undue murkiness when I have doubt ...

Here are some examples:

Einaudi I Giorni:

OK...

But what about here?

Moccio Il etat une fois:

Moccio may say ‘with pedal’ but in this one he says nothing. I think an extended note in the bass that one can’t suspend without pedaling indicates at least half pedaling (not sure I really know how to do that.) Also, when played to tempo, I doubt there’s time!

BartK

In general, you change the pedal when the harmony changes. This type of music has extremely simple harmony. The Einaudi is just chords D, A, Bm, and G repeated throughout the piece. When the chord changes you change the pedal.

MRC

Bart is quite right for the Einaudi piece. I would add this tip.

Many pianists will make a very fast up-down motion of the pedal at each harmony change. This has two drawbacks:

it can be noisy.
the dampers may not stay on the strings long enough to completely damp the vibrations, so the sound becomes muddy.

It's better to hold the first note of the left hand a little longer than written. You don't need to hold it for the whole bar, just long enough to be able to calmly lift the pedal, let the old harmony clear, then bring the pedal down again and still catch this note with it.

For the Moccio extract, it can actually be played without pedal, and it's best to learn it this way. Then start adding light touches of pedal, always listening carefully to the result.

Remember, when pedalling, always let your ears guide you. Try different ways of pedalling and listen to the differences in the sound.

ShiroKuro

One thing that needs to be mentioned about Einaudi is that often his music includes direction about when to use the una corda pedal and when to return to full pedal. You can see it in I Giorni where he specifies 1 C. or 3 C. These directions come up in tons of his scores.

This isn’t exactly want you ( @TulipAcid ) are talking about, but it’s an essential part of his pieces.

pianoloverus

In the first piece I wouldn't use any pedal in measure 2 or at least in the first part of the measure where neither hand is playing anything and no notes are held. Otherwise sounds from the first measure will still be sustained which goes against the rests in both hands. It appears to be a mistake in the music. Same idea in other similar places in the score.

ShiroKuro

pianoloverus In the first piece I wouldn't use any pedal in measure 2 or at least in the first part of the measure where neither hand is playing anything and no notes are held. Otherwise sounds from the first measure will still be sustained which goes against the rests in both hands. It appears to be a mistake in the music.

Are you saying this based on listening to Einaudi's playing? Because I think what you're saying is correct in general, but not for this piece, and not for Einaudi.

This section is to be played una corda, the direction for that comes in measure 1, not visible in @TulipAcid 's photo, and continues until measure 32. The pedal lines are consistent for these sections where the theme repeats throughout the piece.

I'm confident it's not a mistake in the score.

pianoloverus

ShiroKuro I am going completely by the score. I'm assuming that the pedal in the score shown is for the sustain pedal. If the score including the pedal is by the composer, then one should follow the pedal markings. If not, how does one justify the keeping the pedal depressed when there are rests in both hands? If one wants sound from measure 1 sustained in measure 2, why write rests? Unless this type of music uses non standard notation, I don't see how one can keep the pedal depressed if there are rests in both hands.

ShiroKuro

pianoloverus Unless this type of music uses non standard notation

Let's not call it "non standard," let's call it post-classical notation. 🙂

Anyway, here, listen to this and tell me what you ~~think~~ hear:

Also, here's the whole first page:

ranjit

I think you are supposed to depress the pedal throughout. Pedaling on every chord change is the classical aesthetic. If you leave the pedal on, it makes the melodic lines feel more connected and gives it a certain kind of "sheen". I think many modern composers go for that kind of sound. Tbh, even in Chopin and Liszt, there are spots where you hold the pedal for 4 measures or so even when the harmonies blur. I think the pedal changes here are intentional so that it does not sound like Mozart or a basic 4-chord piece when it kind of is.

pianoloverus

ShiroKuro I'm assuming where the Ped. is marked with the dotted lines that refers to the sustain pedal. Is that correct? I hear the sustain pedal depressed in almost every measure unlike what's marked in the score but it's not so easy to tell from the recording. For example, I hear the sustain pedal quite clearly depressed in the first and again in the second measure of the score you posted although it's not marked in the score. IOW I hear pedaling like Bart suggested which is very similar to classical pedaling. That's why I asked if the score is approved by the composer in which case there's not much to discuss and one just follows the score.

ShiroKuro

thanks for listening!

pianoloverus I'm assuming where the Ped. is marked with the dotted lines that refers to the sustain pedal. Is that correct?

yes.

I hear the sustain pedal depressed in almost every measure unlike what's marked in the score but it's not so easy to tell from the recording.

I'll have to listen again when I get home but... Do you hear a "pedal clear" (depressed pedal, up and then down again) where the marking goes up? My assumption is it's meant to be pedalled throughout, but the markings show where to raise and lower and again.

For example, I hear the sustain pedal quite clearly depressed in the first and again in the second measure of the score you posted although it's not marked in the score.

Right, I always assume w Einaudi you pedal throughout, so now reading what you wrote, the pedal markings are ambiguous.

IOW I hear pedaling like Bart suggested which is very similar to classical pedaling.

Right, but don't you think it sounds like the pedal is depressed through those rests? That's what I thought earlier, but I'll have to listen again later.

separate from that, it's hard to know how much processing or mixing the CD recording has undergone (Which is what the video links to, I'll have to look for a live recording by him.. I think I linked to one in the PIYW thread a while back...)

That's why I asked if the score is approved by the composer in which case there's not much to discuss and one just follows the score.

I would love to know whether the score was approved by Einaudi or not! I always read any interviews with him I find, and it's clear (and well-known) that he reads and writes musical notation.

But it's not clear whether the scorebooks are his own notations, so someone else's transcription, and it's not clear whether he "vets" them.

David Nevue has written about how he (David) didn't initially read music, and he doesn't write down his compositions. So when he's ready to release a score, he pays for someone to transcribe it, and then he vets it. I've read that that was George Winston's process as well. But I've never read something similar about Einaudi...

Maybe I'll google around more later...

pianoloverus

ShiroKuro My assumption is it's meant to be pedalled throughout, but the markings show where to raise and lower and again.

If the piece is meant to be pedaled throughout then the pedal marking are completely wrong since the pedal indications are not showing that and are totally inconsistent with pedaling throughout. The only other possibility is that the pedal indications are only for the non obvious pedaling like is common in Beethoven's scores.

ShiroKuro

pianoloverus The only other possibility is that the pedal indications are only for the non obvious pedaling

this is my assumption, because anyone who regularly listens to Einaudi and plays his music will know that pedal throughout is the rule.

But to your earlier point, I would love to know whether he vets those scores, or how much an editor gets their hands into them.

wing

It seems to me the pedaling desired by the composer is fairly precise and prescriptive - to hold down toward the end of each phrase to let it ring out once the arpeggiation stops. But to not pedal when the arpeggiation is actively busy or changing.

Most of the time if a composer wants a constant and intuitive pedaling throughout but without having to keep repeating the notation, they'll show how they want it in the first few bars and then write sim.. And then if you see ped. with a line written again, this effectively resets or nullifies the sim. direction.

But in the case where I see ped. placed during the entire score at exact locations, I would interpret that as precisely when and when not the composer wants to use pedal.

Let me know if I misunderstood your question!

wing

also here's some helpful information from my book "Behind Bars" by Elaine Gould, which is considered one of the gold standards on modern notation practices and engraving. This doesn't mean every composer or publisher subscribes to the same practices, but it's worth noting that with modern compositions standard practices are more commonly observed than older music where it can be a bit of the wild west.

ShiroKuro

wing thanks for your two posts, very helpful!

There’s no sim. anywhere in this score btw. I’ll look at the other scores in this collection and see what other directions are notable.

I wish score books shared more info, like who edited it (if it was edited), that kind of thing.

TulipAcid

ShiroKuro

Thanks for the recording, I think Enaudi pedals a LOT more than what is marked.

If I listen carefully with headphones, at a volume I don’t recommend for casual listening, I can hear the shh shh of the dampers moving in the pp-mf sections not marked with pedal.

(I didn’t want to go that far … listen at volume … but I did and it was edifying.)

(also, this was fun seeing everyone’s thoughts on the matter)

pianoloverus

wing But in the case where I see ped. placed during the entire score at exact locations, I would interpret that as precisely when and when not the composer wants to use pedal.

I think it's already been agreed that the composer's performance in the video includes a lot more pedaling than indicated in the score. In the first two measures, for example, and basically much more than indicated in the score throughout the piece. If one agrees with that assumption, then the conclusion would be that the indicated pedaling is there to show only the non obvious pedaling. This is how Beethoven marked pedaling in his scores.

pianoloverus

TulipAcid Thanks for the recording, I think Enaudi pedals a LOT more than what is marked.

Yes, I think he basically pedals extensively throughout which is why the indicated pedaling is probably there to indicate non obvious pedaling. It's not intuitive to pedal where neither hand is playing anything and rests are indicated in both hands. Maybe the editor didn't use sim. because he thought some pianists would be confused without showing the pedaling in each case.

I once saw a master class with Claude Frank where the pianist played some Beethoven Sonata with very little pedal. When Frank asked the student why he didn't pedal a lot more in some obvious places, the student said he was following Beethoven's pedal indications. Then Frank smiled and explained how Beethoven marked pedaling.