playing with a score

TC3

I guess I'm one of those "natural memorizers," but I don't think that's always a good thing. I'd like to get more comfortable playing with sheet music in front of me, but I'm wondering how y'all approach that. Do you keep your eyes on the score most of the time, only occasionally glancing at your hands for larger leaps, etc.? Or are you looking away from the score (at your hands, at the audience, at the ceiling ... ), only occasionally glancing at the score to remind yourself what comes next? Or something else entirely?

Animisha

Back and forth, back and forth. But TC3, what do you do when you learn a piece? Don't you go back and forth, back and forth?

ShiroKuro

TC3 I'd like to get more comfortable playing with sheet music in front of me, but I'm wondering how y'all approach that. Do you keep your eyes on the score most of the time, only occasionally glancing at your hands for larger leaps, etc.?

This is probably the best description of what I do. I have my eyes on the score, moving with the music, looking at specific measures, notes, phrases as I go. So it’s very close reading. Another thing to maybe point out is that once certain details on the score are learned (memorized?) I am no longer activities looking at them, an example of this is fingering. I write in a lot of fingering notation, but once I’ve memorized/internalized the fingering, I no longer actively look at or read that information. But I am always actively looking at the actual notes.

I feel like “active reading” is the key element. That playing with the score is a process of active reading…

Or are you looking away from the score (at your hands, at the audience, at the ceiling ... ), only occasionally glancing at the score to remind yourself what comes next? Or something else entirely?

The only looking away I do is to look at my hands. I don’t look up at the ceiling, at the audience, any of that.

This active reading approach has really benefitted me. I am able to retain more pieces at once in my playable repertoire. I don’t worry about memory slips while playing. I learn new music more quickly. And I’m a much stronger reader than I was years ago. Although I don’t consistently practice “true sightreading” (i.e., reading-playing through a piece I’ve never seen before), I do go through periods where I do a lot of that (say, for 5 minutes at the start of practice). For example, at the beginning of this year, I sightread all the pieces in the Alfred’s book “ The Piano Student's Hymnal” and I could tell that my true sightreading ability has improved a lot.

I think being a strong reader is a highest beneficial skill for any pianist.

BartK

When I was a beginner I used to memorize everything and play from memory as soon as possible but now I mostly keep my eyes on the sheet unless it's something technically difficult and I have to look. I only memorize after I can play the piece and only if I want to play it from memory.

To learn to do this I recommend always following the music with your eyes. Over time you will get used to it and it will become more natural. Also, sight read something new every day to help develop your reading ability.

danno858

I agree with Bart's advice. I try to keep my eyes on the sheet and glance at my hands when there's leaps or places where I can easily miss by one key. I find that each year that goes by, I'm getting better and better at sight reading- the more you do it the easier it becomes. His advice about something new every day is worth its weight in gold.

pianoloverus

To improve playing with the score the most important thing is to practice doing this a lot. Those who have not done much playing from the score fairly often have difficulty looking back and forth between the score and the keyboard, and this is a skill that requires practice. How frequently one looks back and forth depends on many factors: how familiar one is with the piece, one's skill at looking back and forth without losing one's place, and one's skill at playing the correct notes without looking at the keyboard. My strong impression is that some pianists who could probably look at the keyboard less than they actually do and still play all the correct notes, still look at the keyboard a lot because they are very adept at looking back and forth between the and the keyboard.

There are endless videos of top pianists playing with the score and it's interesting to watch how often they take their eyes off the score. I think there is quite a bit of variety among these pianists and you have to watch their eyes to see the frequency because sometimes it's only their eyes that move, not their head.

Since piano duets are almost always played with the score, watching duets being played is a good place to observe eye movement.

TLH21

Eyes on the score for me. I find that when I glance away, say for a large jump, I have to have actually practiced glancing away and back in order to not lose my place. I rarely memorize pieces, although do typically to memorise key sections (e.g. page turns, codas).

MRC

Here's a video where you can see exactly where a pianist looks, first when playing from memory and then when reading from a score:

ShiroKuro

MRC thanks so much for posting that video! Fascinating!

It reminds me of working with my teacher this past year on some difficult passages, and sometimes she would say “don’t look down, you don’t need to.” And forcing myself not to look down for big jumps, I would find that I could do it. I just didn’t believe that I could.

I grabbed some screenshots from that video.

Daniel is the teacher, Charlotte is the student (for those who didn’t watch the video, note that although she;s the student, she’s probably a very advanced student, not a beginner).

Time spent looking at score vs looking at keyboard:

Visual range

So perhaps one takeaway is that the more confident player (the teacher) not only looks at the keyboard less, but when he does look at the keyboard, his eyes are not jumping around and he’s probably using more of his peripheral vision than she is (or maybe using it more effectively).

Really interesting!

Seeker

MRC Very interesting. Thank you for the video. Can you share information about the device used on the glasses frame? Part of my daily practice includes difficult passages that I want to be routine when I play them in the context of a piece. A prime example is the last two pages - the Coda of the second movement of Schumann's Fantasy. As you know, the leaps are of unequal distances, hand vs. hand! I have been working to keep my eyes centered and to rely on peripheral vision. It would be useful to know how successful I am in doing that.

TC3

Animisha Good question. I think I learn pieces in a fairly standard way: small chunks at a time, hands separately first then hands together, etc. It's just that I tend to memorize very quickly, whether I try or not, so it's not long before I can practice the piece without even getting the book out.

For all the usual reasons (no debate needed -- I'm already convinced!), I would also like to be able to play with the score, but I wasn't really sure what people meant when they said that (whether their eyes are on the music most of the time, or just glancing at it from time to time, or something else entirely). It's definitely a skill I need to practice, but I'm trying to get clear on what it is I should be aiming for.

Thanks for all the responses so far, everyone! Keep 'em coming!

thepianoplayer416

I discovered that I'm a good memorizer while playing violin in school. Playing from memory allowed me to get through pieces at the year-end concert with less anxiety. I've seen videos from music studios that students were reading as he they performed their pieces.

I play more technical piano pieces from memory since I don’t read fast enough. The easier pieces with a lot of repetitions I can read but after practicing for a while I'd be playing from memory. After playing for a while I'm a better reader but still find that I had to slow down and repeat sections with tricky /awkward fingerings.

It’s a good idea to improve your reading so you can learn new pieces faster. Once I brought a book of Classical pieces to a lesson. The teacher turned to a Bach chorale on 1 page and played it through by sight with few mistakes. Playing pieces from memory is also good that you don’t need to read every note.

A good way to improve your reading is to find new pieces to read regularly. Some people would go online and find 1 new piece a day. As you play through a new piece, allow yourself to correct mistakes as you go but not repeat the piece more than 3 times. Otherwise you would have learned enough of it that you wouldn't need to read most of it.

When it comes to memorizing music, Suzuki comes to mind. Suzuki students would learn all the beginner pieces in Book 1 by ear listening to a CD, from memory and imitating the teacher's hand positions. Reading is introduced slowly in Y2. Suzuki students are encouraged to perform from memory after Y1. Suzuki emphasized playing by ear and claimed that students would play with more musicality if they focus on listening than reading off sheet music. The majority of Suzuki teachers would stick to Suzuki Books and students would repeat the pieces they learned throughout the year so they would have enough pieces for a year-end recital. Every Suzuki student would be performing many of the same pieces in a year-end recital.

Many years ago a friend of the family got her 2 sons into Suzuki violin & piano. I've seen them both play pieces at their grandfather's funeral. The one who learned piano played the slow movement of the Beethoven Pathetique Sonata and the Bach "Prelude in C" from WTC Book 1 from memory.

IMO the "Bach Prelude in C" is the piece students should be able to play partly by reading and partly from memory at the same time. The piece is just chord arpeggio sequences from top to bottom and every arpeggio repeated once. The first time playing an arpeggio you'd be reading the notes and the second time from memory (or muscle memory). I've seen videos where student performers lacked the confidence to play it through consistently... like the first time playing an arpeggio sequence correctly but the second time with with missed notes or vice versa. After playing an arpeggio once, some students would read the exact same sequence of notes again when repeated with nothing memorized.

MRC

Seeker Can you share information about the device used on the glasses frame

Those are special eye-tracking glasses. There are all sorts of models, with prices ranging from less than 1000 dollars to tens of thousands of dollars: https://imotions.com/blog/learning/product-news/eye-tracker-prices/

I imagine the glasses being used in the video are quite high-end ones.

Animisha

TC3 I think I learn pieces in a fairly standard way: small chunks at a time, hands separately first then hands together, etc. It's just that I tend to memorize very quickly, whether I try or not, so it's not long before I can practice the piece without even getting the book out.

I meant, when you learn a new piece, what do your eyes do? Before you have memorised the notes - do you go back and forth between the score and the piece?

pianoloverus

When one becomes proficient and moving ones eyes away from the score and not losing one's place, I think many pianists will do that quite frequently and not just on big jumps. This is especially true, I think, for music one is reasonably familiar with because one has more time to find one's place back in the score and look further ahead in the score because the piece memorized to some degree. I think if one carefully watches the video of Kissen and Argerich I posted one will see them glancing down at the keys(often just moving their eyes) quite frequently even though they could probably play that piece with their eyes mostly glued to the score if they had to.

Today I was practicing this piece which I am basically finished learning and know quite well.

I'm usually not aware of most of the times I glance away from the score, but for a few moments I tried to be aware of that and was shocked how often I did it, even on many of the easiest passages where I could probably play without looking at the keyboard at all. My frequent glancing away from the score could be for many reasons: I've been playing music for over 50 years virtually exclusively from the score, the piece is a slow ballad so there's more time to look away from the score and not be concerned about finding one's place very quickly, since I've practiced this piece a lot with the score I assume that makes it easier to find my place back in the score since I'm so familiar with the score.

ShiroKuro

pianoloverus since I've practiced this piece a lot with the score I assume that makes it easier to find my place back in the score since I'm so familiar with the score

I know that this applies to me. With a score I’ve played a lot, I have a very spatial memory of it. For example, I know which sections occur on what spots on the page, such that, if I’m not looking at the score, say I’m not even at the piano, I can call to mind where a specific pattern occurs. In other words, I could say at the top line on the left side of the page, bottom line on the far right, second line in the middle of the line etc.

I also do this with written text, something I’m studying etc. If it’s a physical book, I can also tell you whether a specific topics appears on the left page or right page.

This is something I’ve always noticed about myself, and I’m sure it contributes to the ease I feel of playing from a score.

I don’t know if this is a skill that could be developed, but maybe it’s one way to get more comfortable reading. Maybe @TC3 you could practice this — for example, listen audio (so you’re not using your hands), follow the score with the music, and periodically look down (to the specific note of course) and then back up.

If that feels easy enough, then do it while you yourself are playing. Pick easier music and make it a point to look down and up again, maybe even more than you need to, with the intention of training yourself to find the right spot on the page each time you look back up again.

This is like “score geography” as opposed to keyboard geography.

Jane

ShiroKuro I have a very spatial memory of it. F

That's something I mentioned in another thread without calling it that.

As I've started switching to using Ekier scores for Chopin, whatever spatial memory I have of those pieces in Paderewski or Joseffy editions is wrong and it's almost like having to learn the piece again. Almost. Unless I'm truly "hard" reading the notes and not just glossing along.

ranjit

ShiroKuro I know that this applies to me. With a score I’ve played a lot, I have a very spatial memory of it. For example, I know which sections occur on what spots on the page, such that, if I’m not looking at the score, say I’m not even at the piano, I can call to mind where a specific pattern occurs. In other words, I could say at the top line on the left side of the page, bottom line on the far right, second line in the middle of the line etc.

I also do this with written text, something I’m studying etc. If it’s a physical book, I can also tell you whether a specific topics appears on the left page or right page.

This is something I’ve always noticed about myself, and I’m sure it contributes to the ease I feel of playing from a score.

I don’t know if this is a skill that could be developed, but maybe it’s one way to get more comfortable reading.

How strong is the visual memory?

I don't think I "naturally" have a strong spatial memory of pages. I can do it consciously without too much of a problem, but it tends to not stick so much in long term memory.

Actually, I did this deliberately for the first movement of the Pathetique when I learned it 2 years ago, and I can rather clearly remember what goes on in which of the 8 pages and where, and I used it while performing as well. But it doesn't so much happen automatically to a significant extent. I'm not sure, though, because maybe it is being "recorded" subconsciously without my awareness and I have no idea how it works for other people.

I think a lot of it for me is a combination of theoretical +auditory + memory of how hands look. I do think I have a really strong aural memory and can pretty much play sections of many pieces I've learned in my head after months or sometimes years -- it is partly what made me start playing the piano, because I could play songs that I knew from aural memory on the piano quite accurately pretty much from the start.

pianoloverus

Jane As I've started switching to using Ekier scores from Chopin, whatever spatial memory I have of those pieces in Paderewski or Joseffy editions is wrong and it's almost like having to learn the piece again. Almost. Unless I'm truly "hard" reading the notes and not just glossing along.

I have very occasionally switched editions and I think the issue you mention would be true for virtually everyone. OTOH I've found that because I'm forced to pay closer attention to the newish edition and, as you say, I'm forced to learn the piece again at least in part, I sometimes see things that I ignored in the older edition, and this can improve my playing of the piece.

Jane

pianoloverus I sometimes see things that I ignored in the older edition,

Agreed. But even reading a score I've had for years I see things I've ignored. I think it's a poltergeist. They can't possibly have been on that page all along!

TulipAcid

pianoloverus

I was working on JS Bach’s Partita #3 Fantasia in a printed Henle edition, then shifted to a digital Henle edition.

THE FINGERING WAS DIFFERENT!!! Drove me nuts until I realized there was a way to turn off the fingering in the app, then I transported it from the app to an iPad music app so that I could add the fingering from the printed version.

Whew!

Also, the staves are laid out differently between the two versions. I have no idea why. Still 3 pages though.

Along those lines, what caused me to move from the printed version (or any paper version of anything) was the page turning thing. If there was one thing that would drive me to memorization (which I’m terrible at) is the page turning thing.

ForScore and MobileSheets offer ways to turn pages via facial expressions. That being said, I’m not sold on the iPad Pro form factor, so … I had a ‘gamers’ portable monitor (24”) that I set up on my music stand with a thingie that holds my iPhone and ForScore on my computer and my iPhone. Those two are linked so I can turn pages with the iPhone’s camera. Alas, can’t do that with MobileSheets.

ShiroKuro

I wonder how common this kind of spatial memory is... maybe it should be called visual-spatial? Because it's a visual memory of where something is physically? Maybe it's something everyone does? Or maybe something people who are "visual learners" do more?

I have no idea...

Animisha

ShiroKuro I wonder how common this kind of spatial memory is... maybe it should be called visual-spatial? Because it's a visual memory of where something is physically? Maybe it's something everyone does? Or maybe something people who are "visual learners" do more?

I wonder if it is aural ability rather than visual ability that is very important for some memorisers. That is, the pitches of a piece are almost automatically memorised, just like most people effortless learn a the melody of a new song when they listen to it, and their brains have a strong connection between a key on the piano and the pitch that it produces.

For instance, this pianist finds the notes on the piano as easily as she can sing the notes.

TLH21

ShiroKuro it's a visual memory of where something is physically

I totally get where you are coming from on visual memory. Whether it is retrieving a paper among multiple stacks on my desk, finding a reference when I have several books open, or even just doing an 'automatic pilot' shop at the grocery store, the quickest way to befuddle me is to move things. Unfortunately, my eyes don't seem to work quickly enough to switch distances between the keyboard and the score got find the exact bar without some advance preparation. I hear you too on the memorization thing - it is just not something I willingly and easily do. Playing by ear feels more natural though, so reading is something of a discipline I keep working on.

TC3

Animisha Yep, I understood, and kinda the same answer, but I'll try to be clearer. I'm working on very small chunks at a time, one hand at a time. I look at a section for one hand -- maybe just a measure, and then play it. I might have to look back at the score before I play it, but with one hand and sections that small, I pretty much don't have to look back and forth while I'm playing, it's not much to remember. I do this a section at a time, getting hands together, and as I go, I don't really need to look at the score much as I'm practicing. I just start connecting smaller chunks into larger ones, so I might look at the score before I play to remind myself of the chunks, but I'm not looking at it much while I'm actually playing. Does that make sense?