Teachers disagreeing on things

thepianoplayer416

ShiroKuro
It's quite amazing that she tried to play this piece with her RH lifting off after every note. Might be possible for her to use the pedal to keep notes connected that her RH can't.

I've seen a professional violinist in concert with a disabled RH, The LH was used to press the notes on the strings, the RH moves the bow even with an artificial arm. A piano teacher would recommend that she switch to an instrument like a violin that she can express herself & the music fully. No dispute.

ShiroKuro

thepianoplayer416 A piano teacher would recommend that she switch to an instrument like a violin that she can express herself & the music fully

I don’t think she necessarily has to give up the piano. There are lots of players who play just fine even though they have some hand problem, one hand that doesn’t have five fingers etc. She just needs some instruction.

JillCrosslandPiano

ranjit Well- every teacher is going to be different. Normally the pupil will only be taught by one teacher at one time and yes, kind of commits to going with that teacher's method while they stay their pupil.

ranjit

JillCrosslandPiano Well- every teacher is going to be different. Normally the pupil will only be taught by one teacher at one time and yes, kind of commits to going with that teacher's method while they stay their pupil.

Call it "curse of knowledge", but I know so enough piano students who got injured following their teachers that I'm paranoid about following a teacher's instructions exactly. I probably only completely trust my own judgment and what I think my body is telling me. I know that's possibly unorthodox, but it's a free country so (shrug)...

Jane

ranjit I'm paranoid about following a teacher's instructions exactly. I probably only completely trust my own judgment

Animisha

ranjit It seems like every one of my teachers disagrees with every other one in significant ways and it's exhausting. I never know what's right because everyone says the other ones are wrong. Do you find this happens to you as well? I find it to be especially true regarding technique.

Yes, certainly. My strategy is to have only one teacher at the time, and trust that teacher. (It can be difficult to find a teacher who you trust though, but once you have found them, trust them.) That means, if she (my present teacher) wants me to play something different to what another teacher has taught me, I don't protest but try to do as she says. Sometimes it is hard, especially in the beginning, but in this way, you'll learn from each teacher what is inside of them to teach you.

ShiroKuro

ranjit I think injury concern is probably a separate issue . Any musician should absolutely listen to their body and not doing something that feels like it will trigger an injury.

TheBoringPianist

Yeah my teachers all disagree with each other but I treat them all as inputs and then make my own decision on how to incorporate them into my playing (which may change over time or even from performance to performance). Fortunately, my current teacher is very supportive of me trying lessons with other teachers as well, and always gives the disclaimer that his feedback is just his own opinion, and that I should make my own choice on the matter (but makes it very clear that I Must Make A Clear Choice or I am just delivering note slop).

The jurors at the competitions I go to often disagree about things too! From the same piece:

"Very poised playing, with rich sound and a stately character. Transition beautifully done. Solid, well-voiced. Nice singing."
"not sure this is a good competition piece, or really even a good concert piece. Good feeling/dynamics. The louder melodies- your sound isn't "French" enough, too much arm weight. Loud sounds/chords a little hard. Mostly I wasn't convinced by your sound in this piece."

ranjit Whether practicing long hours is necessary or wasteful, whether you should lift your fingers or press into the keys, whether you should have some tension in places, whether you should practice a lot of technical exercises or zero technical exercises and learn from pieces, whether you press into the key or not, how to apply "arm weight" or "finger articulation", how to phrase things

oh yeah most of this seems pretty irrelevant outside of the last couple points. My teachers don't tend to talk to me about practice hours and technique, maybe because I'm an adult amateur and I'm not going to have the impeccable technique of a wunderkind or career pianist.

But I guess if I had to condense my thoughts: there's no right way. But try to find your way. I think the best teachers are able to help bring out what makes you unique and interesting as a performer, just like how Nadia Boulanger was able to guide such disparate composers as Grażyna Bacewicz, Elliott Carter, Aaron Copland, Philip Glass, and Astor Piazzola, among others, with their own unique voices. Maybe someday you'll add your opinionated voice to the mix!

ShiroKuro

TheBoringPianist like how Nadia Boulanger was able to guide such disparate composers as Grażyna Bacewicz, Elliott Carter, Aaron Copland, Philip Glass, and Astor Piazzola, among others, with their own unique voices

Oh wow, that’s quite a group! And an excellent example for this discussion.

As to @ranjit ‘s original question… well and actually it gets at what @TheBoringPianist is talking about…

In foreign language pedagogy, there’s an often-discussed concept called “the zone of proximal development.” It’s so common that people just say ZPD and everyone knows what they’re referring to. Anyway, from an online summary: the ZPD refers to the "sweet spot" for learning. It is the gap between what a learner can do independently and what they can do with guidance or support.

I started learning piano over 25 years ago, sometimes people will ask me why I still take lessons. And the reason is the ZPD. I can do more, play more challenging pieces etc., with the guidance of a teacher, than I could just by playing and practicing on my own. And of course, the better teachers are always working in that zone (my current teacher is sooo good at this, figuring just what info or ideas or practice techniques will help me past a rough spot).

So for @ranjit instead of thinking about why teacher 1 disagrees with teacher 2, maybe think “what is this information/instruction doing for me in this moment, to help me get past this challenge.”

Maybe that’s a different way to look at it. Maybe not… 🙂

TLH21

ShiroKuro instead of thinking about why teacher 1 disagrees with teacher 2, maybe think “what is this information/instruction doing for me in this moment, to help me get past this challenge.”

There is a general argument to be made that success in education is in learning which rules to ignore. More broadly, I suppose, it is to learn how to evaluate information critically and determine whether your knowledge and skills equip you to assess the value of a given rule/wisdom/offering of information. It can be the study of a lifetime.

ShiroKuro

TLH21 yes, this is the tricky part isn’t it. And it’s probably especially tricky for adult learners. Adults are quite smart, and often have lots of “declarative knowledge” (knowledge of information, understanding of facts and concepts), in this case knowledge about music and about playing. But they sometimes still lack “procedural knowledge” (actual skills and capability, in this case, technical /physical skill in the fingers that can actually be performed at the piano).

I think the challenge is for adults to recognize when their declarative knowledge means it’s appropriate or realistic for them to make their own learning decisions or playing decisions, and also be able to recognize when their lack of procedural knowledge means they should defer to the teacher’s expertise.

This requires a lot of self-awareness as much as it requires piano knowledge.

TLH21

ShiroKuro I think the challenge is for adults to recognize when their declarative knowledge means it’s appropriate or realistic for them to make their own learning decisions or playing decisions, and also be able to recognize when their lack of procedural knowledge means they should defer to the teacher’s expertise.

A good teacher is invaluable is helping a student understand this. My own teacher is not only skilled and knowledgeable about playing piano, but also in teaching. They also actually enjoy the challenges of teaching adults whether beginners or advanced students.

What I particularly appreciate about my teacher's approach is (a) their willingness to answer so many questions (e.g. what am I supposed to learn from this piece, why is this allowed in this piece when convention/previous teaching suggests it shouldn't be done this way), and (b) their flexibility (e.g. providing some easier pieces then my nominal level to use for working on improvisation, finding exercises that may be higher than my nominal level to improve particular skills or illustrate concepts). Not every teacher is willing or able to do this.

I can understand the need to achieve goals or desire having something to show for the effort (example) and recognise that different people have different reasons for learning. I do think that the most benefit comes when you are willing to be taught, so you can evaluate and determine effectively.

ShiroKuro

@TLH21 I love that video! Thanks for linking it!!

TLH21 willing to be taught

This! Being willing to be taught is probably single most important thing for success as a student.

pianoloverus

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned on the thread although I don't recall seeing it... If your teacher tells you something that disagrees with what another teacher told you, whether it's something musical or about technique, I think the best approach is to discuss the discrepancy with the teacher and ask for an explanation, which would hopefully be very clear. I think a good teacher explains most of what they're suggesting even if the student doesn't question them about it. I realize some students, even some adults, might feel uncomfortable doing this.

keystring

ShiroKuro thepianoplayer416 I didn’t watch the whole video, but I think this person may have a disability or some kind of injury/deformity in her right hand.

She does, in fact, have a disability. If you go to her YT channel, it is more clear in other videos. There is a statement that despite her medical condition, she still wants to share her love of music.

keystring

A general thought on the original question. I've found at times that the opposite things by various teachers and other sources might be different sides of a same thing, like the parable of the blind men and the elephant. It may be "all of the above, but none of them" because something lies beyond them. It's bedtime so not the best time to write ideas.

thepianoplayer416

I learned with 2 teachers since I started. Not enough to compare them.

I met Suzuki teachers. They generally teach by the Books. Many S teachers would stick to pieces in the Suzuki Books and play through them in order. If there is any disagreement regarding a piece, just listen to the CD at the back of a Book to learn out the "correct" interpretation. The pieces in the Books were compiled by a Suzuki Association as appropriate for learning in various levels.

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